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How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

blog.robertelder.org

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Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#121
post #77
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you knew enough VHDL you can make your own digital chips including CPUs using off the shelf FPGAs... https://blog.classycode.com/implementing-a-cpu-in-vhdl-part-...

Yeah, certainly true, but FPGAs are beholden to the same supply chain. This doesn’t fix the issue at all.

Helps a lot though, it's much easier to be a consumer of a commodity (the FPGA) than to make the supply chain produce your bespoke product.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#122
post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you talk about if the US has microchip supremacy due to raw materials from Spuce Pine's pure silicon, and if there are any sources that are almost as good or being used instead? Is it almost like De Beer's diamond monopoly? Do you use any countries or specific factories that do better refinement or are the raw materials directly shipped to the manufacturing country? What do you make from the wafers usually? Are c…

The US may have technological supremacy when it comes to design and the resultant products, but it lags behind in terms of actually manufacturing semiconductors. The dominant players are in Asia (TSMC, Samsung, GF) and Europe (GF). Intel has their own fabs, but they are currently behind the competition, and up until very recently only fabricated their own products. There are a lot of other companies in the industry w…

Thank you so much for this industry info. When you design, do you think that Shenzhen is the best in terms of innovation in microchips? They have very interesting random chips that are undocumented, underground, and seemingly random, like the ESP8266 being used in some consumer goods, people noted it, hacked it to run custom software, its essentially a cheaper more powerful and higher energy usage arduino type reprogrammable chip with wifi built in, the company later released an SDK and aruduino studio was also ported. I don't know if there are some wafer that cannot have any defects in them, camera sensors come to mind.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#123
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds way too high for mask costs. You're definitely looking at 7 figures, but I don't think they've yet hit 8. Unfortunately the answer to all of your budget questions is: it depends. It's going to scale with the complexity of your requirements. Something like a custom ARM chip with heavily custom machine learning and signal processing, high speed clocking, etc, would probably need a decent sized team and a fe…

> That sounds way too high for mask costs. You're definitely looking at 7 figures, but I don't think they've yet hit 8. 7nm logic mask set costs are estimated at $10.5M. Of course you could always use a slightly less leading-edge node and save a lot of money. Slide 13: https://semiwiki.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Lithovision-...

Huh you might be right, if only just. It says it's an estimate, but that probably means 3nm nodes will be >$10MM for sure

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#124
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you talk about if the US has microchip supremacy due to raw materials from Spuce Pine's pure silicon, and if there are any sources that are almost as good or being used instead? Is it almost like De Beer's diamond monopoly? Do you use any countries or specific factories that do better refinement or are the raw materials directly shipped to the manufacturing country? What do you make from the wafers usually? Are c…

I’d never heard of Spruce Pine, interesting. I wasn’t able to read the wired article but another article said it wasn’t the silica/silicon that’s the world-beater there though, it’s the quartz for use in crucibles etc? Also - does the US really have microchip supremacy? The highest tech fabs are non-us (Samsung and TSMC)

https://web.archive.org/web/20180808115837/https://www.wired... Here you go. Who gave them the technology in the first place and who do they rely on? They did not make it on their own, and the US's reseach, sphere of influence, technology shared in the western world is why these countries were able to advance in advanced electronics. Look at the founder's history in the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Chang Its hard to say what country multinational companies are, you can note their location but does Toyota become Mexican if they assemble their cars in Mexico, Are they American if they assemble it in the US or does Apple become Chinese if they use Foxconn a Taiwanese company in China? If by fabrication location, when TSMC's 3nm plant opens in Arizona, or Samsung opens their 3nm in Texas that mean Taiwan or South Korea has supremacy or the US? The US controls the supply of the best materials, who gets technology, and sells goods like military technology, its lead the semiconductor business and I would have to say without the ideas, and materials from the US, it would not exist.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#125
post #115
post #24

Circuit designer here - feel free to ask any questions about the manufacturing process, design etc. Having a thorough understanding of the process, I thought this was hilarious. But if you really want to understand the process, it's pretty terrible. It spends 10 steps on making a wafer, and then the bulk of the actual process is condensed to 16.

When designing circuits, I cannot imagine you lay everything out by hand. Do you have specific sets of pre-made circuits/connections that you just kind of copy paste all over depending on the desired functionality of the chip?

Analog and RF circuits are laid out completely by hand! But there are often a lot of symmetries and repeated structures that mean you can re-use a lot of layout. Also, designs are often copied, reused, and repurposed, so those layouts just get modified to adjust, which saves time.

For large digital circuits (e.g. CPUs), it's all automated. There's a lot of human involvement, but ultimately a computer is placing all the transistors and wiring them together.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My brother and several of his friends do this for a living at Intel. Most of them have Electrical Engineering PhDs, though I believe one is a Chemical Engineer. My brother's thesis specifically was in 2d transistor design and worked under a Material Science professor. I believe most universities have professors who teach Semiconductors classes, whether it is under the name Computer Engineering, Electrical Engineering…

> Downside of this field is that there are very few job opportunities without relocating. If you're in the US, you can work at Intel... or Intel. Unless you're willing to move to Taiwan and work at TSMC. Only if we're talking specifically about cutting edge logic. There's Texas Instruments and GlobalFoundries in the US on the trailing edge for logic. In memory, where the fabrication techniques are similar, there's Mi…

I was a bit hyperbolic in my statement, mainly because I was parroting some dinner table conversations. However your list is still fairly short and few are in the same location. If you say, get a PhD in the Midwest in EE specializing in novel transistor fabrication techniques, you likely will have to move states to get a job in the area of your expertise. And if you are unhappy in your job for any reason, you will have to move again to work for a different "big name" company.

I guess the point I was trying to make in my trite (and I admit, inaccurate) statement was that it's not as accessible of a career path as, say, coding. It's more like becoming a rocket scientist: there are very few companies to pick from in that field. And they're not typically in the same place geographically.

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#129
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author misleads you with a point I brought up, it is not possible without globaliziation providing essential raw materials components that have no replacement unless that is your local environment. Spruce Pine has silicon that gives the US microchip supremacy that has dominated for the entire duration of manufacturing. It will never be commoditized that you can take off the shelf raw materials from anywhere local…

I don't think it's inherent that doped silicon will stay the dominant microelectronics substrate and I think it's plausible that people will find new ways to grow it that don't require excellent raw materials.

Where is the evidence for this change or why is it plausible? Unless you have some information I don't, it has never been the case and there isn't a reason to expect it. I hope it can happen, but manufacturing shows no signs that we may make it from a more common material, if anything they will use an even rarer more difficult process because purity of materials is very important and the result of lower quality silicon is so bad that nobody uses it, the chip shortage and reliance on a few places isn't ideal but there is no alternative except not to use them, which is possible. There is a lot of interest for everyone to have it but its not plasible, it can be minized but the refinement is very important, and there isn't any reason for a small community to stop buying globally thir plans at the highest quality plants have better yields, better quality, and they will be more energy efficient. Homegrown parts will not even work because it relies on economies of scale.

However, it is plausible to not rely too much on microchips in general, a pot can control fan speed with older motors, but we lose brushless fans. You may really enjoy post collapse guides if you are interested in what can be made locally.

http://www.survivorlibrary.com/

There are great youtube videos on like primative technology as well that makes things from scratch, even steel cannot be made locally without the proper materials so there needs to be some sort of global/larger community unless they live in a resource rich environment (the US does not have metals like Eurasia does).

Re: How to make a CPU – a simple picture-based explanation

#130
post #54

It'd be really awesome if microprocessors, even at a low-end process node like 130 nm, could be made with room-sized machines or smaller. There's a lot of space for companies wanted to manufacture their own MCUs, for instance, without relying on massive supply chains. I think this'll happen at some point, as silicon manufacturing hits final roadblocks and becomes increasingly commoditized, but it'd be nice if it were…

Making chips at home, by building the required setup from generic parts, is feasible. So is achieving nuclear fusion at home, by building a fusor.

Both are educational and cool, and neither makes economical sense.

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