How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams • Hacker News Board

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#121

Post by mattchamb » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:04 AM UTC

travisgriggs wrote: post #116

What I’ve noticed in this cycle is that as the turn over continues, the employee skill level will trend downwards. Essentially in a sort of ironic-Darwinian-gone-wrong, the system selects for those that will stay and/or don’t care or are desperate enough for work (because of geographical allegiance of low hireability, or just low initiative to make a change). I fear my current workplace that was so cool years ago is…

I see this happening in places too. I have seen it described as the Dead Sea effect.

http://brucefwebster.com/2008/04/11/the-wetware-crisis-the-d...

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#122

Post by jeffyang » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:06 AM UTC

I used to run support groups to tackle the rampant helplessness I saw around me.

The way it worked is that the person would describe their situation and then everyone else would ask questions.

The format was:

1. understand the facts, and understand if they are actually true

2. explore options, even crazy ones

3. pick an action to take and commit to it

For the questioners, the most important rule was you can't give advice. The person who is asking for help needs own it. They provide all the answers and decide on their own action. That action could be anything from talking to your manager, to setting boundaries, to looking for another job.

It worked amazingly well, many people who started off feeling stuck realized they had the ability to find a better path. Even just making a conscious decision to do nothing and being okay with the consequences of that is empowering and insightful.

I used to be completely helpless, learned from childhood. I finally realized that I'm not a child anymore and I have so many more options as an adult.

Happy to chat with you if you're feeling stuck, feel free to email me (see my profile).

Shameless plug: I stopped this to work on a related area - empowering people through team-building. The first session is free, you could do it in place of your next virtual happy hour! Check it out at https://risingteam.com.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#123

Post by beachy » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

mixmastamyk wrote: post #64

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do push for changes, such as bringing ideas to the team lead and bringing these things up with my manager (hence being brought up in reviews). There is a self-reinforcing aspect to learned helplessness in teams, as you've pointed out.

All you have to do is say no once in a while. No, don't bring the company to a halt with a tantrum. Just insist on getting one thing fixed a month and nine months from now everyone will be a lot happier.

> All you have to do is say no once in a while...

> Just insist...

Some companies work like this, but many don't. Such utterances could be charting a course to the door for you.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#124

Post by Iefthandrule » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:18 AM UTC

SaltyBackendGuy wrote: post #107

Iefthandrule wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can't teach everyone to have a backbone. Heck, nerds are infamous for being easy to manipulate.

Anecdotally, the most manipulative individual I've ever met was a nerd.

Who better to profit off of nerds? It's not like there is any kind of solidarity or union among techies.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#125

Post by kungito » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:30 AM UTC

scottlilly wrote: post #37

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

I left my last contracting project around six weeks ago because of encountering this attitude - yet again. I wrote my first custom business program 40 years ago. Since then, I've only been on two teams that didn't exhibit this attitude. At this point, I really don't want to continue programming for a living, precisely because so many people adamantly refuse to fix problems with painfully obvious (and quick and cheap)…

I mean, after 40 years as a programmer, can't you retire or look for a better lower paying job?

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#126

Post by aunty_helen » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:32 AM UTC

NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #19

Just today, my team had a developer meeting. The tech lead started out by complaining about how he has to do an untested unplanned release today because another team made some urgent changes. He's the only person who knows how to release it. The other team didn't communicate until today that a release is necessary. We've done two other releases in the past month and both required a day of troubleshooting to fix issue…

>fight for what's right when others appear to moan and carry on

This is called being a toxic employee, I've come to think of that as a good thing but it's definitely not a career move.

Good story though, can definitely relate

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#127

Post by Brian_K_White » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:33 AM UTC

cm2012 wrote: post #110

The biggest cause of this in my experience is too much codified process, not too little. This is cause #1 in this article, which is vindicating. Adding process is a delicate balance and most large companies err on too much of it. Every checklist you add, every new approval, every sheet that needs some rows filled out, every brief - all of them add friction. New projects are inherently speculative, and most things don…

There is another, opposite force that manifests in humans arising from almost the same inputs, they will often happily tolerate 99% friction, as long as they actually get at least those few 1% of wins.

Even with a ton of nice safe ossified process to make the owners feel safe, if you just make it a policy to give them a win once in a while, they'll live off of that and not even be all that unhappy.

The 99% friction is felt less like a waste and more like a high bar.

I think in a lot of places, they just don't allow even that calculated IV drip of dignity and purpose.

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#128

Post by someguydave » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:34 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

rmah wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech lead started out by complaining about...When he finished complaining... My manager doesn't know anything about the code, my project, or the release project. IOW, your team has no leadership and no management. Your team lead may be called that, but sounds like he doesn't lead at all. Your manager may be called that, but he doesn't manage either. This happens a lot when people are given responsibility without…

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

not every situation can be fixed

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#129

Post by PikachuEXE » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

tppiotrowski wrote: post #41

jreese wrote: post #40

As a member of a core infra/"foundation" team, the biggest drain on my soul is the number of other engineers that are helpless, or never learned how to find solutions on their own. They never search wikis, look for similar posts on internal groups, or even read the error message from the tool that tells them exactly how to fix the problem they're asking about. When the culture has become "google everything", but you…

I agree with this and would add Slack to the equation. It's just faster to ping a senior engineer on Slack than to spend 5 minutes looking into an issue. I've also seen new hires burn an entire week because they were afraid to ask a question. But I think the balance has definitely shifted towards asking too much help...

Here is my balance:

Study a bit, WRITE my discoveries down

Craft a message with issues and background clear to readers (that includes myself when I forgot about this)

Send message to selected recipients, continue studying depends on free time available and issue importance

Re: How learned helplessness happens in engineering teams

#130

Post by pm90 » Wed, Nov 03, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

nickthemagicman wrote: post #114

rmah wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tech lead started out by complaining about...When he finished complaining... My manager doesn't know anything about the code, my project, or the release project. IOW, your team has no leadership and no management. Your team lead may be called that, but sounds like he doesn't lead at all. Your manager may be called that, but he doesn't manage either. This happens a lot when people are given responsibility without…

This resonated strongly with me. If you don't want to become a leader, what do you do in a disorganized mob situation? Leave?

Most often the answer is yes, unfortunately. If you have options make use of them.

If you have to stay, it helps to try and make your team a nice place to be. I remember a manager that would organize team lunches and would give Fridays off (unofficially) making the team an oasis in the middle of a corporate desert. But I can’t imagine it was easy for him to deal with a dysfunctional leadership and coworkers…