Fundamentals of Piano Practice • Hacker News Board

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#121

Post by zarzavat » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:20 AM UTC

aimor wrote: post #89

mgkimsal wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. I grew up with a piano in the house, have had sheet music for loads of instruments (played sax, piano, guitar, family had trumpet/clarinet/misc in house too). Have taken music theory classes, performed in bands in middle/high schools and college. I've never seen sheet music have 'fingering' info ever. Can someone point me to examples of what is being referred…

When I was young and learning piano my teacher would use pencil to write in the suggested finger number above notes. Thumb=1 pinky=5. This was a good reminder when reading the sheet music of where on the keyboard my hands should be positioned. Image search returns some examples: https://ddg.gg/?q=piano+sheet+music+fingering&ia=images&iax=...

It's also very common for string instruments, even at higher levels for difficult passages.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#122

Post by grey-area » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:22 AM UTC

mgkimsal wrote: post #85

dandotway wrote: post #20

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

> ... and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. I grew up with a piano in the house, have had sheet music for loads of instruments (played sax, piano, guitar, family had trumpet/clarinet/misc in house too). Have taken music theory classes, performed in bands in middle/high schools and college. I've never seen sheet music have 'fingering' info ever. Can someone point me to examples of what is being referred…

Beginner piano books often have fingering hints, it’s just finger numbers beside the notes. It makes playing easier when you can’t sight read but is not so useful after that. So it’s not surprising you haven’t seen it.

I’d contend finger numbering is more about learning the notes of a piece easily for beginners rather than about actual fingering.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#123

Post by illwrks » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:26 AM UTC

MrGando wrote: post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

I don't play piano, but my seven year old daughter does. She's doing her grade 2 exam soon enough.

I would also second that advice too! My wife taught her some basics but we got a private teacher for her about a year ago, that has supercharged her ability.

She does a 40 minute lesson once a week. The teacher writes notes on what she is to practice and learn. She practices her work for about an hour a day, and spends maybe another 30 minutes figuring out songs she likes (the Harry Potter theme is her current interest).

I would recommend doing the same to anyone else, a private teacher is the way to go.

As a side note, she didn't just start from zero, we've had her in some form of music and rhythm class since she was 9 months old. She has a good ear for music, timing and instruction, to the point where she used to surprise other parents/teachers with how attentive she was.

Also I make sure to have the classical radio on every morning and evening to further train her ear ;)

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#124

Post by alfiedotwtf » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:34 AM UTC

compiler-guy wrote: post #114

blobbers wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is this a piano hack ? This is the basics of how to learn any song. What's the alternative approach? Repeatedly play the entire song making mistakes at the crux, but insisting on playing the easy parts and pushing through the difficult ones?

That is how many people practice. Beginning to end every time. Maybe slowly, but muddle through the hard parts and blast through the easy parts. Maybe, maybe, replay a measure where you made a mistake a couple of times until you get it right exactly once and then continue. This deliberate one-measure-until-it’s-perfect isn’t something many folks learn on their own.

This is how I've always played until last month. Made a mistake? Fumble through but never really focus 20 times perfect on a single bar like I do now.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#125

Post by alfiedotwtf » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:35 AM UTC

karmelapple wrote: post #90

alfiedotwtf wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not try to practice the whole piece at once. Split it into pieces This has been my biggest ever piano hack. I now practice bar-by-bar and don't move on until I'm happy, and its taken my practice to a whole new level

I’m a little surprised to hear this as being somewhat unique to this book. I took lessons for years and this was a standard technique my teacher encouraged.

Yeah, if only my first teach taught me this... It would have saved me a hell lot of time!

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#126

Post by telesilla » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:41 AM UTC

I struggle with learning pieces by heart. It's my greatest regret that I need sheet music to enjoy the piano, some 40 years later since lessons began in typical classical format. My sight reading is impeccable. Any advice welcome.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#127

Post by hatmatrix » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 7:56 AM UTC

MrGando wrote: post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

I had to laugh out loud when I read that the author openly admits to not being a pianist or a piano teacher... but a physicist. It reminds me a lot of physicists I know who approach every problem with the assumption that they can do it better than people who have been trying to solve the problem long before. On occasion, they are right, but this clearly appears to be one of those other times.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#128

Post by jeffwass » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:18 AM UTC

hatmatrix wrote: post #127

MrGando wrote: post #68

Have to chime-in here as a piano player since age 7 (so been going for ~28 now), who about 2 years ago got very serious about Jazz. I have stumbled across this book many times, I have read it. It's the single most controversial book that I've read about piano technique and playing that I've found. The author, is not even a player himself (!!!). There's a great summary of reviews about the book here ( https://www.pian…

I had to laugh out loud when I read that the author openly admits to not being a pianist or a piano teacher... but a physicist. It reminds me a lot of physicists I know who approach every problem with the assumption that they can do it better than people who have been trying to solve the problem long before. On occasion, they are right, but this clearly appears to be one of those other times.

As both a physicist and a pianist, I have to comment that it’s not only physicists that make these assumptions.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#129

Post by xhevahir » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:31 AM UTC

loxias wrote: post #30

dandotway wrote: post #20

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

>Wish some HN coder genius would write a program that given sheet music as input, outputs the top 1-3 recommended fingerings for that music with explanations for which rules were applied. While I am NOT claiming to be "some coder genius", a program that does exactly this is something on my "projects to-do" list. My partner (who's improving her piano skills) keeps crying out for more sheet music with fingerings... Is…

I've seen some papers about optimizing piano fingering on arxiv before. They used various kinds of machine learning. Some papers dealing with guitar fingering, too.

Re: Fundamentals of Piano Practice

#130

Post by dmlerner » Sun, Oct 31, 2021, 8:31 AM UTC

dandotway wrote: post #20

Does this book cover how to figure out finger numbering for sheet music that doesn't have finger numbering? By finger numbering I mean the standard scheme where thumb=1, index=2, ..., pinky=5, and the notes on the sheet music have these numbers. This is the biggest mystery to me. I understand there is not a One True Canonical Fingering for a given sequence of notes. But some fingerings make the music much easier than…

MIT OCW 6.006 talks about this (in much higher resolution than when I last saw!): https://youtu.be/TDo3r5M1LNo?t=2806

An optimal fingering for n notes played one at a time by an F fingered hand can be found in nF^2 time, or I believe n(F^F)^2 if you allow F note chords. "Optimal" in the sense of minimizing a cost function defined in terms of state transitions: c(t, f, t', f') is the cost of playing note t with finger f, followed by note t' with finger f'. E.g. c(a3, 1, b3, 2) Side rant -

Having grown up on violin, but learning piano as an adult, (and as a programmer), it kills me to index fingers from 1 (thumb) to 5 (pinky). Violin doesn't use the thumb, so the pointer to pinky are 1->4! Worse, as a Suzuki violinist, I hear (to some approximation) the number of the finger I'm thinking about while playing. Worse yet, I read bass by "adding two" notes to treble, so I get a nice off-by-two to think about with my off-by-one.

I should, uh, probably get a teacher.