Live data from Hacker News

A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

economist.com

121–130 of 375 posts

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#121

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

It's good that people investigate homelessness and go one level deeper.

But why do they stop at drug addiction?

Or worse, decide that drug addiction is the underlying root cause that now needs to be treated with rehab, detox, or what have you.

Drug addiction is not the cause of poverty. Poverty is the cause of drug addiction.

The stories of the people who get into drugs recreationally, then descend into addiction, and destroy their lives are the exception vs those that start using to escape deeply challenging lives with poverty, physical abuse, and mental health struggles.

The dramatically rising rates of homelessness and addiction across US/Canada are the side effects of the toxicity of our society, the erosion of social safety nets, and runaway wealth inequality, capitalism, and housing affordability crises.

The Portugal model works when the rest of your society is cohesive enough to support those at the fringes. I don't know if it actually can succeed in nations founded on rugged individualism and who instill the obsession with liberty and freedom in every person from birth. This not only leads to society unwilling to help those that need it, it also makes those that need that help unwilling to accept it.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#122

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

The author argues that housing prices are not a significant factor: "Throughout it, they emphasized that the homeless were just like you and me, just poorer. Today, many of California’s leading homelessness advocates insist that the current crisis is due mostly to the housing shortage. Homelessness experts and advocates disagree. 'I’ve rarely seen a normal able-bodied able-minded non-drug-using homeless person who’s…

Able bodied able minded homeless people prefer clinic doctors in my experience.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author argues that housing prices are not a significant factor: "Throughout it, they emphasized that the homeless were just like you and me, just poorer. Today, many of California’s leading homelessness advocates insist that the current crisis is due mostly to the housing shortage. Homelessness experts and advocates disagree. 'I’ve rarely seen a normal able-bodied able-minded non-drug-using homeless person who’s…

> I’ve rarely seen a normal able-bodied able-minded non-drug-using homeless person who’s just down on their luck This right here. Nearly all homeless I've worked with were non-neuronormative and/or drug abusers. They're almost never just normal folks who have fallen on hard times. The reason they aren't rooming with a family member or friend is because their behavioral outbursts and/or stealing things to buy drugs ha…

Worked with in what capacity?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#124

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

So what should we do? Locking everyone up seems like it would be even more expensive with even worse long-term results.

Build facilities to rehabilitate drug addicts and facilities to treat and house the mentally ill. Allowing those who cannot take care of the themselves to roam the streets and engage in behavior that is self-destructive and destructive to society is not compassionate or logical - its a system that has proven to be a failure.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

>He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. If you want to find out what a situation is like, why would asking someone about it be more informative than actually going there and witnessing it yourself? The self proclaimed "experts" are the ones responsible for the policies that have turned San Fransisco into what it is today.

Maybe it’s not a simple problem, in engineering we’re used to cause and effect in a system. With human scale problems it’s more like observing a cat than a machine responding to inputs. It seems to me you could fill a page of bullet points with the many causes of homelessness in SF.

If that really is true, then it makes sense to have someone familiar Guide you through various aspects of the problem. Especially the non-obvious parts.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

>He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. If you want to find out what a situation is like, why would asking someone about it be more informative than actually going there and witnessing it yourself? The self proclaimed "experts" are the ones responsible for the policies that have turned San Fransisco into what it is today.

The Homeless Industrial Complex is as responsible for maintaining the conditions in SF as Chesa and his hands-off enforcement policies are.

A lot of strife in our society today can be attributed to non-profits being incentivized to keep their raison d'être continuing in perpetuity.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#127

The book's author was recently on Joe Rogan where they discussed the book and many of the policies in SF. They discussed: de-criminalization, the "Portugal approach", progressive policies, policing, etc. Also the use of language such as "homeless camps" which envisages a camp of homeless people just trying to live. Versus the reality which when social workers and mayors (mayor of Denver) went into these camps underco…

Mayor of Denver never went to these camps. You may be talking about the Mayor of Aurora (city next to Denver) who just decided one day to pretend to be homeless. He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. He just went to the most visible camps, met the most visible people and essentially just increased the stigma. https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/crime/auroras-mayor-went-unde...

So you’re saying his own experiences should be dismissed because he didn’t gather information through “official” channels?

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#128

("in San Francisco") From 2005 to 2020 the estimated number of unsheltered homeless people nearly doubled, even as homelessness declined nationwide. One possible explanation: California has become the dumping ground for the nation's homeless population. We have a nationwide shortage of housing. Both in person and online, I continue to hear homeless people plan to move someplace relatively warm and dry while stuck on…

> We have a nationwide shortage of housing.

First, you must understand that the population of San Francisco is growing, but slowly. Over the last decade San Francisco grew by just under 10%, which sounds like a lot, but it really isn't when looking at a larger data set compared to many other metropolitan areas. San Francisco is now the 17th largest city in the US, which I believe is unchanged from a decade ago. Looking at the data a huge number of cities are growing dramatically faster than San Francisco.

The fastest growing big city in the US is Seattle, which grew over 27% the last decade. That is a lot of growth, but Austin, Fort Worth, and Denver grew at nearly the same rates (26%, 26%, and 24% respectively) and the first two were 50% larger, which is a phenomenal amount of growth in raw numbers. This year Austin bumped San Jose to become the 10th largest city in the US and last year Fort Worth became the 12th largest city. 10 years ago Fort Worth was the 18th largest city in the US. In the next 10 years Fort Worth will also likely surpass San Jose and become the 11th largest city in the US, though its only the 5th largest city in Texas.

Why is it then that housing supply is a major issue in San Francisco, but not in these other cities that are growing so much faster? It cannot be due to geographic constraint, because Seattle and Dallas are geographically restricted as well, Seattle due to ocean and mountains and Dallas due to encapsulation by suburbs.

Secondly, when this conversation comes up people in the bay area tend to be unable to differentiate housing from houses. More specifically from any place to live versus owned single family real estate. This is likely due to restrictions on size and affordability not present in many other locations. There is a substantial difference with regards to equity, taxation, value, availability, and inflation.

Third, the actual data suggests absolutely no relationship between housing inventory and growth. Most people want to quibble about some high school economics class they once took with regard to supply/demand without looking at the data. The supply/demand relationship typical of retail does not apply to fixed assets. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixed_asset

In high growth markets the speed of population growth is a direct correlation to the availability of inventory. This means that the more housing that exists for purchase the more the population grows to accommodate. When housing inventory shrinks, often because they can only build so many houses at a given speed, higher density housing units are introduced in place of single family homes, thus further accelerating the rate of growth. This is not observed in San Francisco because San Francisco is not growing that fast and has constraints on home ownership not present in many other locations.

Even more unexpected is that house prices, as in actual houses that people own, is only loosely associated with demand. In my area houses have increased in value about 34% over the past year and continues to climb, though very slowly now. That price growth was due to unassociated economic material constraints that have since recovered and now the supply of new single family homes are again exploding and new apartment complexes are popping almost as fast. Access to existing inventory was not interrupted and growth of new units did not dramatically slow during this price volatility, yet prices sky rocketed and demand remained constant.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/us-cities

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#129
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sympathetic to a leftist solution here, but let's not ignore the reality of what happened when we built huge public housing buildings in the 50s and 60s. They were a failure for everyone involved, and there aren't any easy solutions.

What is a good source on it that is not written by a bourgeoisie economist or other agent of the wealthy?

Go take a walk through a housing project in Baltimore or Brooklyn and you won't have any doubts about the situation or have to trust the opinion of someone else. Just make sure you get your affairs in order first.

Re: A cautionary tale from the streets of San Francisco

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>He didn’t work with any organization or ask about the problem. If you want to find out what a situation is like, why would asking someone about it be more informative than actually going there and witnessing it yourself? The self proclaimed "experts" are the ones responsible for the policies that have turned San Fransisco into what it is today.

The Homeless Industrial Complex is as responsible for maintaining the conditions in SF as Chesa and his hands-off enforcement policies are. A lot of strife in our society today can be attributed to non-profits being incentivized to keep their raison d'être continuing in perpetuity.

It's easy to blame the system instead of making people take personal responsibility for their actions.
Post reply on HN