.NET Hot Reload Support via CLI • Hacker News Board

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#121

Post by ynx » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 2:37 AM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #39

fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

As a very longtime iOS and Linux dev turned Windows and .NET dev (with some rust on the side) - who has used VSCode, VS, and Xamarin for multiple years - no.

There is a place for a featureful IDE with robustly implemented build, debug, and package management capabilities working out of the box with multiple languages and entrenched technologies.

I do very much like VSC and use it all the time for anything involving text, markdown, cross-platform C++, javascript, and even rust...but Visual Studio is as much of the Windows or .NET dev's toolkit as Xcode is a part of a dev in the Apple ecosystem.

VSCode is great. However, there is plenty of space for VS: it is also very strong, and has a long history of deep and extensive integration into very mature technologies. VS is still getting better year over year and while I see VSCode as competitive in some spaces, it is no contest in others. If VSCode is to replace VS, it has a very long tail of issues to address, the resolution of which would probably raise both boats anyways.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#122

Post by colejohnson66 » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 2:52 AM UTC

quadrifoliate wrote: post #69

This is reductive, but I am going to repeat the idea that you should not be trusting Microsoft in the first place. Their GitHub acquisition, VSCode, and CodeSpaces are clearly a moat-building towards making GitHub yet another version of Office 365 where you have to pay $$$ for developer tools. GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow, and in 7-10 more years I predict that they will…

> GitHub's workflow already bears little resemblance to a "real" Git workflow,

Which is? Email lists? GitHub is much easier to deal with than scouring through email threads. It may work for Linux, GNU, and more, but it doesn’t for the majority of devs.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#123

Post by brundolf » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #111

oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

Electron has full support for multiple windows, and you can even do it with a regular browser app if you get a little creative (windows can talk directly to other windows they create, and/or all windows could talk to the same server and receive push updates via websocket)

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#124

Post by xvilka » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:16 AM UTC

bmitc wrote: post #111

oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

> but desktop is dead People keep saying this, but they obviously have no idea. Desktop isn’t dead and nowhere near it. Just because web and mobile app developers think so doesn’t make it true. There are several industries in which desktop applications are a must. Any application with the needs of multiple windows automatically rules out web and mobile stacks, even if they happen to work on desktops.

> There are several industries

I would say most industries. Anything that requires creating any kind of digital content (images, videos, CAD models, electronic schematics, chip design, PCB layout, etc), most of the scientific software, all rely on the computational power and the speed of the desktop applications.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#125

Post by jessikat » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:19 AM UTC

oaiey wrote: post #39

fabian2k wrote: post #25

This feels more like an internal turf war inside Microsoft. The general open source strategy with .NET Core and VS Code has been running long enough that I don't think it's just a smoke screen. But there's probably plenty of different interests inside Microsoft that are at least partially in conflict. The Azure side probably doesn't care about selling Visual Studio, but they care about developer mindshare and reputat…

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Visual Studio does a lot more than just visual designers. The integration for .NET is fantastic. And I love Visual Studio Code for everything else :) Visual Studio still has value.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#126

Post by oneplane » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:19 AM UTC

creato wrote: post #46

oaiey wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are people on record that it was the Azure division head Scott Guthrie who gave permission to open source ASP.NET Core (which at the time was part of Azure). Later the asp.net team merged with the .net team and brought the open sourcing with them. VS has no place anymore. The velocity and mindshare is with VS Code. VS with its visual designers had its place .. but desktop is dead and Xamarin competes with frame…

Has anything ever actually replaced VS? I've only ever used VS for hobby/side projects, and even 10 years ago it was leaps and bounds better than what I have to use for my professional day to day work now (code completion, debugger are the two things that I miss basically every day). The tools that I use now have these features, but they're such a joke in comparison. The code completion has no notion of "code", it's…

To be honest, not needing to write legacy C# and C/C++ applications have replaced VS for me.

It's not a replacement for VS itself in that regard, but the activities that used to be bound to that IDE moved on over the years.

Whenever I have to load some old project into VS, it feels old, slow and clunky compared to other tools. The limitations on the structuring on-desk, metadata, building, linking etc. are very annoying as well for projects that ended up having more than just generic Windows Desktop targets (or even if they are highly specific editions/versions). I suppose that might be because other tooling outside of the process of the 'write-debug-release' chain has moved to broader and more interchangeable concepts where VS has remained basically the same for the last decade.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#127

Post by ComputerGuru » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:21 AM UTC

blibble wrote: post #116

ComputerGuru wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s extensions do you have installed? VS 2019 significantly fixed performance issues, and I work with both C++ and C# projects much bigger than a few hundred lines of code. Debugging UWP and ASP.NET Core is a lot slower than debugging regular old WPF or SWF but that’s because of all the bloat during the deployment step. If you have VisualAssist or Resharper installed, disable them and see the difference.

none, clean installation every 2 weeks (note I said a file with a hundred lines of code, not project)

Yeah, I have no problem with cs or cpp files thousands of lines long. Granted, I'm loading the project from an NVMe disk, but I just don't see what you're running into.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#128

Post by Rapzid » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:21 AM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #24

>> We underestimated the number of developers that are dependent upon this capability in their environments across scenarios, and how the CLI was being used alongside Visual Studio to drive inner loop productivity by many. That's a very odd way to say "modern developers don't use Visual Studio."

The original rational was bullshit, no surprise the walk back is too.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#129

Post by oneplane » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:24 AM UTC

enhray wrote: post #72

oaiey wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

VS Code and language servers have leveled the game a lot. Regular Editing is pretty much on par. Debugging and diagnostic they are still strong.

There's nothing "on par" when it comes to C/C++/C#, and these three languages are still quite big in non-web world.

I doubt that. Unless you specifically target win32 and its non-core replacements (like classic full-fat C#) there is nothing that VS has to offer that outdoes other programs.

For the non-web world specifically, the part that was Windows Server and Windows Desktop is simply a dead end outside of niches. And within the niches, comparisons are not all that relevant since... they are niches. If you have a specific job for a specific tool, then trying to compare that with something that does not meet those specifics isn't all that helpful.

Most of my C/C++ work that remains doesn't even target windows anymore since there is no purpose for it. The super small subset that does is just things like device drivers, and that's more a property of the OS than of the project itself.

Re: .NET Hot Reload Support via CLI

#130

Post by saghm » Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 3:24 AM UTC

tomnipotent wrote: post #88

ethbr0 wrote: post #24

>> We underestimated the number of developers that are dependent upon this capability in their environments across scenarios, and how the CLI was being used alongside Visual Studio to drive inner loop productivity by many. That's a very odd way to say "modern developers don't use Visual Studio."

According to the Stack Overflow developer survey, Visual Studio is still the second most-used IDE by professionals. Granted, SO has a very strong .NET community so there may be some bias.

IDE specifically, or editor in general? The former wouldn't really surprise me since most of the editors I see friends and coworkers using aren't really IDEs per se; I mostly see people using VS Code, Vim, Sublime, and maybe emacs occasionally. The only IDEs people I know ever talk about using besides VS are Jetbrains products and I guess Xcode for iOS dev.