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Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#121

Post by YeGoblynQueenne »

nemo wrote: post #117
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I've read the linked blog post, thank you very much for making an ass of u and me. And btw, that Herodotus, while being "the father of history" was full of shit, is something that any Greek school kid will tell you readily, so bringing this up is just a shallow dismissal of my point: that all we know about ancient times is what ancient authors have written, like Herodotus, Xenophon, Thucydides, Plato, and Plutar…

>all we know about ancient times is what ancient authors have written Contemporary approaches to ancient history do not rely exclusively on literary sources, but build a much fuller picture from epigraphy (inscriptions and graffiti can tell us a lot), archaeology, and numismatics.

You're right, not all knowledge comes from ancient authors. But I don't agree that there is enough information in epigrams and so on, to figure anything out with the context provided by long-form prose by authors who were sometimes even contemporary with the events they describe. I guess that's opinion though.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#122

Post by dragontamer »

arisAlexis wrote: post #113
dragontamer wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't matter how "tough" Spartans were. They were largely illiterate and terrible at logistics. Its hard to win battles when you're terrible at supply lines. And its hard to keep track of supplies if you don't know how to read or write. ---------- I've commonly heard that Spartans were good at fighting but bad at war. Turns out that a band of illiterate warriors is largely a bad idea for an army composition. If…

Someone on the internet "commonly heard". Ok.

The propaganda of an elite class of warriors is useful. It's basically why the US Marines exist, and such stories are useful for recruitment and morale purposes. (Furthermore: Army can pickup on the engineering, supply and logistics problems).

But there is also the truth and history that we want to learn about sometimes. I think the Spartan mythos was useful to other Greeks, and the Spartan mythos remains useful today (in the form of US Marines).

But the myth is distinct from the real and actual history. It is beneficial to peel back the propaganda sometimes and analyze history for what it is.

Spartans did not win battles more often than others. Spartans couldn't field an army for extended periods of time. Etc. Etc. And yet we have these stories and written history of how great a warrior they were.

Thus: they probably were good at fighting (almost universally accepted). But war is more than just a fight. All the other bits of war were hampered by Spartan society, most noticably their illiteracy.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#123

Post by labster »

dylan604 wrote: post #69
labster wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Besides the obvious modern political axe you’re grinding, the parallel doesn’t quite apply to ancient Sparta. While the Spartiates had more training and equipment, the same was not true of the lower caste armies they also fielded. The US army has great logistics; the Spartans could only afford boats when Persia paid for them to beat up their neighbors.

I wasn't really grinding an axe at all. Just pointing out the fact that "super powers" with lots of toys and training does not always mean an automatic "W" on the scoreboard. It was true in the days of Sparta, and it is true today. What axe are you wanting to grind?

You’re saying the US lost militarily in Afghanistan, which didn’t really happen. The war was won, and could be maintained indefinitely without wrecking the economy. But the only way to win the peace would have been a century of colonialism, for a place that hasn’t been worth it since wooden ships bypassed the Silk Road.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#124

Post by dylan604 »

labster wrote: post #123
dylan604 wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't really grinding an axe at all. Just pointing out the fact that "super powers" with lots of toys and training does not always mean an automatic "W" on the scoreboard. It was true in the days of Sparta, and it is true today. What axe are you wanting to grind?

You’re saying the US lost militarily in Afghanistan, which didn’t really happen. The war was won, and could be maintained indefinitely without wrecking the economy. But the only way to win the peace would have been a century of colonialism, for a place that hasn’t been worth it since wooden ships bypassed the Silk Road.

I never said anything about any specific conflict. You're putting words in my mouth, and I quite frankly find it rude. I get to decide what goes in, it's the only decision I have as I can't control what comes out.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#125

Post by gremloni »

weego wrote: post #82
gremloni wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all men were gay then is being gay a choice? Serious question.

Willingness to have sex with another male is not being "gay". Attitudes towards gender and sex are not just a new thing, many cultures, historically, have had far more fluid concepts of these things.

Willingness to have sex with another male is literally the definition of homosexuality. What are you talking about?

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#126

Post by gremloni »

stefs wrote: post #75
gremloni wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If all men were gay then is being gay a choice? Serious question.

where do you get the idea that all men were gay? and no, being gay is not and never was a choice. one can have sex with people (of the same sex) even when they're not attracted to them but that doesn't make them gay. counterpoint: a lesbian is able to have sex with a man but that doesn't make her straight either.

So then except in a small minority of cases (less than 5-7%) these “pedophilic” relationships were not really sexual at all as the author claims.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#127

Post by gremloni »

ceejayoz wrote: post #107
gremloni wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a little hard to believe all the men were gay. Is being gay a choice?

What I wear is a choice most of the time, but at my wedding, it was traditional to don a tuxedo, so so I did it. Being gay is about what you’re attracted to. Fucking a fleshlight doesn’t mean you’re attracted to them, after all.

So then most of these mentors were not fucking the boys as the author claims.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#128

Post by ceejayoz »

gremloni wrote: post #127
ceejayoz wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I wear is a choice most of the time, but at my wedding, it was traditional to don a tuxedo, so so I did it. Being gay is about what you’re attracted to. Fucking a fleshlight doesn’t mean you’re attracted to them, after all.

So then most of these mentors were not fucking the boys as the author claims.

No, that doesn't logically follow.

It means if they were, it wasn't necessarily about attraction. (We see this phenomenon in many rapists, incidentally.)

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#129

Post by gremloni »

ceejayoz wrote: post #128
gremloni wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So then most of these mentors were not fucking the boys as the author claims.

No, that doesn't logically follow. It means if they were, it wasn't necessarily about attraction. (We see this phenomenon in many rapists, incidentally.)

I don’t see why a preference for domination/power imbalance doesn’t count as attraction. At that point, attraction to the same sex definitely counts as homosexuality.

Re: Sparta was more than an army of super warriors

#130

Post by CRConrad »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #81
distances wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And so on. Read history; and make up your own mind. I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice. One person can be expert in a very limited number of fields, and one of the main advantages of our modern society is that we can afford to have experts in very niche areas. It's much better to recognize who are the actual experts in any given subject, and read their output / follow their…

>> I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice. I never used the words "do your own research" and I will very please ask you to not quote me as saying words I didn't actually say. Further, "do your own research" is what conspiracy theorists say. Are you saying that my advice to read Herodotus and Thucydides is on the same level as spreading anti-vaxx propaganda or 5g-conspiracy theorie…

>> I'm of the opinion that this "do your own research" is generally bad advice.

> I never used the words "do your own research" and I will very please ask you to not quote me as saying words I didn't actually say.

Here, let me remind you:

>>> Read history; and make up your own mind.

Wow, huuuge difference.

> Further, "do your own research" is what conspiracy theorists say.

Exactly. And if you want to be taken for someone almost exactly like them, don't sound almost exactly like them.

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