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Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

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Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#121

Post by fomine3 »

gambiting wrote: post #38
morsch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must mean tomorrow, because today, we just keep the stuff around in intermediate facilities.

The thing is, we know how to store nuclear waste in such a way that it's a solved problem forever. Literally gone and not a worry for any generation from now until forever. It's called deep borehole disposal[0]. Drill a hole all the way down to Earth's crust, put your waste there = it's not coming back on anything shorter than geological timescale. " It is estimated that only 800 boreholes would be sufficient to stor…

The problem is that there's no place where not anyone's backyard. Even the big US failed for Yucca Mountain.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#122

Post by gambiting »

fomine3 wrote: post #121
gambiting wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, we know how to store nuclear waste in such a way that it's a solved problem forever. Literally gone and not a worry for any generation from now until forever. It's called deep borehole disposal[0]. Drill a hole all the way down to Earth's crust, put your waste there = it's not coming back on anything shorter than geological timescale. " It is estimated that only 800 boreholes would be sufficient to stor…

The problem is that there's no place where not anyone's backyard. Even the big US failed for Yucca Mountain.

You can live on top of the borehole though, no issues. It's not like the area has to be cordoned off forever.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#123

Post by fomine3 »

gambiting wrote: post #122
fomine3 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that there's no place where not anyone's backyard. Even the big US failed for Yucca Mountain.

You can live on top of the borehole though, no issues. It's not like the area has to be cordoned off forever.

Technically true, but not work for most people's feelings.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#124

Post by littlestymaar »

bjourne wrote: post #118
littlestymaar wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oops I forgot to put the link to my model. For your specific questions: - Solar energy: sort of, I did three variants (100% solar, 100% wind, an the current Wind/solar ration) - energy import: I kept the same energy import profile as of today. It would have made the model much bigger (I would have needed to simulate the entire European grid instead of just the French one, making me deal with tons of different data so…

But the whole point of 100% renewables is that you rely on imports when there little domestic production. It's not true that international power connections are tiny. In the Nord Pool market which integrates the Scandinavian and Baltic countries electricity markets over 5 GW is at this moment being exported/imported.

If you rely on import for renewable, you better hope that you neighbors are not too much into the same kind of renewable… For instance, there are not that many independent wind cells in Europe so entire regions are deprived from wind at the same time. In a 100% wind scenario, you'd need to transport electricity from say Portugal, Spain and France to supply Germany, Denmark and Sweden. And we're talking about >100GW here, 5GW is tiny.

Making such electricity transfer possible would require a huge overhaul of the European links.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#125

Post by dagw »

tehsauce wrote: post #117
dagw wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With batteries and thermal storage you can scale up over time. You can have a new small thermal storage or battery facility up and running in 2-3 years and slowly build it out over the next 20 years, with the option to change technology or capacity as needed during that time. With nuclear you have 20 years of 'nothing' before you have anything to show for your efforts.

It’s true you can start small and scale up, but it still would probably take many years to accumulate enough batteries to make a significant difference. Secondly, it doesn’t make 20 years to build a modern nuclear power plant, 5 years is a better estimate. So nuclear is still easily the cheaper/faster/proven method compared to batteries or thermal.

5 years is a better estimate.

How I wish that where true. But looking at all current new Nuclear power plant projects in Europe and the US it's clear that we are incapable of that. Yes we can argue about why that is and how in theory it shouldn't take that long, but the truth is that best case scenario it will take you more than 5 years just to get a building permit to start buildings a new nuclear power plant.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#126

Post by morsch »

junon wrote: post #91
morsch wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must mean tomorrow, because today, we just keep the stuff around in intermediate facilities.

We can currently refine waste down to levels safe enough to keep out of containment facilities, and can dispose of it by landfill in a way that will have zero ecological risk or impact, forever. So no, not "tomorrow".

In Germany, today, there is no refinement. I'd be interested about how much refinement is happening as a percentage of waste generated, globally. At first glance, the US doesn't do it, either, for example.

https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brennelement

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#127

Post by bjourne »

littlestymaar wrote: post #124
bjourne wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the whole point of 100% renewables is that you rely on imports when there little domestic production. It's not true that international power connections are tiny. In the Nord Pool market which integrates the Scandinavian and Baltic countries electricity markets over 5 GW is at this moment being exported/imported.

If you rely on import for renewable, you better hope that you neighbors are not too much into the same kind of renewable… For instance, there are not that many independent wind cells in Europe so entire regions are deprived from wind at the same time. In a 100% wind scenario, you'd need to transport electricity from say Portugal, Spain and France to supply Germany, Denmark and Sweden. And we're talking about >100GW h…

France regularly exports 10 GW+ to its neighbouring countries. Transnational HVDC lines is not a difficult problem.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#128

Post by pydry »

realusername wrote: post #106
pydry wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which days? It's currently 43%.

Wait until winter, now it's just no wind but then you'll have no wind and not much sun both in the same time.

The wind does still blow and the sun still shines in winter.

I was wondering if you were referencing data from a particular day in winter 2020 or if it was a guess.

Re: Energy Prices in Europe Hit Records After Wind Stops Blowing

#129

Post by littlestymaar »

bjourne wrote: post #127
littlestymaar wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you rely on import for renewable, you better hope that you neighbors are not too much into the same kind of renewable… For instance, there are not that many independent wind cells in Europe so entire regions are deprived from wind at the same time. In a 100% wind scenario, you'd need to transport electricity from say Portugal, Spain and France to supply Germany, Denmark and Sweden. And we're talking about >100GW h…

France regularly exports 10 GW+ to its neighbouring countries. Transnational HVDC lines is not a difficult problem.

That one order of magnitude off though… There's no technical issue, the grid just isn't designed in such way and you'd need enormous investments to get there.

It's nothing money can't buy, but it's a hell lot of money: extrapolating from existing submarine HVDC project in Europe[1], connecting great Britain to mainland Europe alone would cost a few dozen billions. Want to connect the whole Europe like this, you'd have to pay a few hundred billions.

[1]: http://publications.jrc.ec.europa.eu/repository/bitstream/JR...

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