Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers • Hacker News Board

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#121

Post by betterunix2 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

AndrewBissell wrote: post #82

betterunix2 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vaccination is not a political position. Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. A basic function of a government is to protect public safety, and that is what a vaccine mandate does.

> Vaccines only work if a large majority of people are vaccinated and people who refuse to receive the shot are putting everyone else in danger. I assume by "work" you mean herd immunity (I can't make sense of the statement otherwise), but even 99% vaccinated regions are seeing transmission because the Covid vaccines are not sterilizing and do little or nothing to reduce transmission. Herd immunity arguments don't ap…

Citation needed, because that contradicts the CDC's guidance:

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

"people fully vaccinated with an mRNA vaccine (Pfizer-BioNTech or Moderna) are less likely than unvaccinated persons to acquire SARS-CoV-2 or to transmit it to others"

emphasis mine

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#122

Post by titzer » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:32 PM UTC

nostromo wrote: post #101

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

My takeaway is the opposite: I'm pleasantly surprised with how many people are vaccinated, and how quickly. It's hard to get 2/3rds of Americans to agree on just about anything. When you look at the hold-outs, it's largely young people who are at very low risk of serious illness. (85% of 65 and older are vaccinated, but just 57% of people 18-29.) So it makes sense to me that they are more hesitant.

I have extended family--aunts, uncles, cousins--who all decided not to get vaccinated. There are young people who can't be bothered to do a damn thing, but hesitancy among a particular political persuasion is rampant.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#123

Post by twstdsistrs84 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:33 PM UTC

tzs wrote: post #117

twstdsistrs84 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. Additionally, viral concentrations via min PCR cycle threshold has been found to be roughly equal between vaccinated and unvaccinated. And finally, these mandates completely ignore natural immunit…

> Ok, but the covid vaccines do not prevent infection or transmission -- which really takes the wind out of the "do it for the good of the community" sail. They do appear to reduce the length of infection which would reduce transmission.

Is that the latest talking point now? Sounds like more politicized "science" coming from our corrupt institutions. In any case, even if the above is true, I don't think it demonstrates sufficient efficacy of the vaccine to introduce mandates. Especially mandates which completely ignore natural immunity.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#124

Post by titzer » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:34 PM UTC

threatofrain wrote: post #73

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

Punching yourself in the face, or nanny state discussions, is more akin to something like a seat belt law. We have seat belt laws to stop the individual from hurting themselves, not because we're afraid they're going to launch out as a projectile and hurt others. But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing. If it were just about hurting yourself, then I'd agree that the discussion should be fra…

> But vaccination is a community thing more than an individual thing.

Right. It's more like running red lights in an absolutely massive armored vehicle. Little risk to self, potentially fatal consequences for others.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#125

Post by landryraccoon » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

rajin444 wrote: post #116

Daishiman wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you support having unvaccinated nurses in hospitals full of people with compromised immune systems? How does that work?

If this is a major concern testing daily is the only option. The covid vaccine's efficacy wanes over time.

Wouldn't the obvious solution be to combine both effective approaches? Both vaccination and regular testing should be employed.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#126

Post by betterunix2 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:35 PM UTC

angelzen wrote: post #114

betterunix2 wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a…

It's the vaccinated population that breeds vaccine-resistant variants. Just like it's the antibiotic half-course that breeds antibiotic resistant bacteria. As the vaccines are failing harder and harder, convenient to blame those that weighted long term risk over short term protection.

No, the unvaccinated population, where the virus keeps being replicated, breeds variants of all kinds; the vaccinated population applies selection pressure that favors vaccine resistance. If the entire population is vaccinated variants would not emerge at all because the virus would not spread from person to person (and would eventually disappear from the population).

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#127

Post by donutdan4114 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:36 PM UTC

Gosh, disturbing comment section for disturbing times. When experimental medical treatments become mandatory for illnesses that have a 99%+ survival rate, and there is absolutely NO LONG TERM safety data, some red flags should be raised.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jktvh6k0qys

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#128

Post by angelzen » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:39 PM UTC

michaelt wrote: post #40

As a part-time libertarian, one of the frustrating parts of the pandemic has been discovering how many people need the nanny state to step to stop them punching themselves in the face. Near the start of the pandemic, I thought the most intrusive state powers would barely be needed. Why would you ever need to make a vaccine mandatory? What rational person would refuse a lifesaving medicine offered to them for free? We…

There are vaccines. Everyone that wants a vaccine already got it or can easily get it. People say they are extremely good at eliminate severe covid, that's what I got one myself. But at this point taking a vaccine or not is a personal decision.

People are punching themselves in the face all the time, see obesity crisis for example. Should we ban hamburgers & fries next?

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#129

Post by gregwebs » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:40 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #87

gregwebs wrote: post #57

IMHO the effective thing to do is to focus all our efforts on vaccinating 100% of those that will end up in the ICU (the elderly and those with co-morbidities). These kinds of vaccine mandates get some of those at the greatest risk vaccinated but also ends up being a giant distraction in the US and makes it harder for the rest of the world to get the vaccines that they need as well. I think the blanket mandate approa…

That is not how vaccines or diseases work. Vaccines are never 100% effective at preventing infections or at preventing people from having to go to the ER. One vaccinated person surrounded by unvaccinated people will eventually contract the virus. A large unvaccinated population also breeds new variants, eventually resulting in vaccine-resistant variants that put those who are vaccinated in danger. The fact is that a…

Your statement is reasonable for sterilizing vaccines, and maybe even for this vaccine before the Delta variant.

However, this vaccine is non-sterilizing, meaning that it does not stop people from getting infected in the nose but stops progression to the lower respiratory tract thus preventing hospitalization. Before the delta variant the vaccines also worked surprisingly well at reducing infections, but with the Delta variant this is much less clear (if you have any links to studies on this topic I am very interested to see them).

Now we are risking the opposite situation. Most people that I encounter say "I am fully vaccinated" (so I don't need to wear a mask, take precaustions, etc). But the studies on these COVID vaccines have always shown that with great enough exposure the vaccinated will get infected and transmit that infection to others.

Re: Biden to mandate coronavirus vaccine for federal workers

#130

Post by twstdsistrs84 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 7:41 PM UTC

donutdan4114 wrote: post #118

literallyaduck wrote: post #80

Isn't this an unnecessary medical procedure for people who have already recovered?

CDC says vaccines are still better: https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/search/research-news/12157/ This paper says natural immunity better: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v... Unfortunately the science is evolving so fast and the variants are coming so fast, it's impossible to keep up!

The CDC has become a political body that parrots government propaganda. It doesn't take anyone long to find countless examples of the CDC making bold claims which turned out to be clearly wrong. Their stance on natural immunity flies in the face of commonsense and is just one more example of their political nature.