20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports? • Hacker News Board

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#121

Post by trident5000 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

gilrain wrote: post #107

trident5000 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im in favor of people concealed carrying for this exact reason...distributed security works better than slow centralized security and a vulnerable public. Obviously this doesnt work for a plane though. Fully expect to get downvoted for this on HN...because its HN.

Or because every actual study has shown this line of reasoning isn’t backed by reality.

Practically every law enforcement agency is going to disagree with you on that. Id like to see these studies if you dont mind.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#122

Post by aww_dang » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

bedhead wrote: post #40

Things like this are why I'm so cynical about COVID stuff. We have an unconditional commitment to stupid reactive policies that elevate symbolism far above sensibility, and boy does it have a lot of inertia. The parallels between COVID and our post-9/11 reaction are eerie.

I agree the parallels are clear. Both narratives rely on fear and mass hysteria. Putting aside the hot potato of 9/11, we can hopefully discuss the issue of Iraqi WMDs in a less inflammatory way.

The mainstream presses never had a reckoning for their role in issuing false rationales for the war in Iraq. Those who believed the propaganda shouted down dissent as "conspiracy nuttery" and anti-Americanism. After the fact, many of those I know simply switched their positions. They denied they ever unfairly dismissed concerns or experts (Hans Blix) which ran counter to prevailing propaganda.

Which brings us back to the present rationales for expanded state power, where dissent is dismissed as conspiracy nuttery and anti-science. Once again, the incentives are ignored.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#123

Post by monkeynotes » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

Godel_unicode wrote: post #93

bambax wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and this is why crazy pilots suffering from depression can bury their planes in the ground and nobody can do anything about it. 200 people lost their life in the crash of Germanwings 9525 on March 24, 2015, but this is not classified as a terrorist attack so it doesn't really count for anything. However, it is the direct consequence of the so-called security procedures implemented the world over; those 200 peopl…

This lead directly to the rule that nobody can be alone in the cockpit. If you're in the front of the plane when a pilot needs to use the toilet you'll see the dance; service cart blocks the aisle, flight attendant goes into the cockpit, then one pilot comes out.

To me this sounds like a risk for service cart/flight attendant/exiting pilot being overcome and entry gained to the cockpit. Even better a hijacker knows exactly when the opportunity arises as the service cart will be moved into place indicating the dance is about to start.

Furthermore, what's to stop suicide pilot murdering co-pilot behind a locked door?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#124

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

trident5000 wrote: post #70

baktubi wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the nation should make military training/civil service mandatory. The reality is that random attacks will happen in random places and everyone needs to be equipped to handle accordingly. Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. This would create a tighter bond between citizens and improve communities ability to look after one-another. If everyone handles…

Im in favor of people concealed carrying for this exact reason...distributed security works better than slow centralized security and a vulnerable public. Obviously this doesnt work for a plane though. Fully expect to get downvoted for this on HN...because its HN.

[deleted]

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#125

Post by Godel_unicode » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

_ph_ wrote: post #71

k__ wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, while not as big as flying a plane into the WTC, blowing one up would still be possible.

Yes, but that has rarely happened in history. And to prevent that, we do scan the luggage and make sure that there is no unidentified luggage on the plane.

The shoe scanning is an extension of that, based off of the real threat that someone will pack shoes with explosives. The only reason it didn't work the last time it was tried was that the bomber stayed in their seat as opposed to e.g. using the toilet.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#126

Post by atatatat » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #102

pharmakom wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldnt that also equip many attackers with better skills?

It would, no doubt. I Russia, despite a nominal ban, you can buy a gun on the vegetable market, but nobody seem to be going, and shooting people out of a sudden other that 2-3 freak accidents per year. Being murdered in a banal armed robbery is a by far bigger risk.

Vegetable market?

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#127

Post by trident5000 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:12 PM UTC

cloche wrote: post #117

trident5000 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Im in favor of people concealed carrying for this exact reason...distributed security works better than slow centralized security and a vulnerable public. Obviously this doesnt work for a plane though. Fully expect to get downvoted for this on HN...because its HN.

In a suddenly chaotic situation how does the distributed security communicate and know they're on the same side and not treat each other as the enemy?

They teach you this in the course you need to take to concealed carry.

If someone is doing massive damage...cornered people in a restaurant and is shooting them one by one. Someone can respond to that. Youre going to hear it and see it. Not every scenario is going to play out perfectly but at least theres mitigation on the table.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#128

Post by UncleDiaz12 » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

GDC7 wrote: post #60

And of course everybody ignores trains, they don't even look at you...like the 300 souls aboard a train don't matter. Also the 10000+ souls at the departing and arrival train station also don't matter. Not to mention the 4000 souls aboard cruise ships. It ain't about safety from ill-intentioned people...it's about protecting the POTUS from having to give the order to open fire on an hijacked civilian plane. That's th…

Cruise ships do search you quite thoroughly before boarding, but they are looking for booze.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#129

Post by asdfasgasdgasdg » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

arkh wrote: post #103

wycy wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common.

> Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common. Maybe because your base assumption is wrong: there are not many of them.

There are plenty of radicalized people, but valuing your life so little that you'll risk it for the cause and having a cause that wants you to kill random civilians is not very common.

Re: 20 years after 9/11: Will we ever stop taking our shoes off at airports?

#130

Post by jcranmer » Wed, Sep 08, 2021, 2:13 PM UTC

baktubi wrote: post #45

the_snooze wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. It's not a 9/11-style attack we need to be worried about. No one will let a plane get commandeered ever again. The 9/11 terrorists took advantage of the "comply with the hijackers" policy in place at the time. That opportunity ended the moment the second plane hit the towers. The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack tha…

I think the nation should make military training/civil service mandatory. The reality is that random attacks will happen in random places and everyone needs to be equipped to handle accordingly. Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. This would create a tighter bond between citizens and improve communities ability to look after one-another. If everyone handles…

What made the DC sniper attacks so terrifying was that there was no commonality to the targets, except that it was normal people doing normal everyday things. There's nothing you can do to protect yourself from the sniper except to not go outside (which is in fact what a lot of people did in response to the sniper).

> Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures.

... Military training teaches none of those, so far as I'm aware, except maybe the first. But even then, you're getting training on a rifle, which is not the most likely firearm a civilian would be carrying.