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Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

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Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#121
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We are, and when it labels both black and white people that, perhaps we can consider that a fair point.

> and when it labels both black and white people Unfortunately the article doesn't provide any details on whether that was the case or not. I'm finding it very difficult to form an opinion about this specific issue without having more info.

You think Facebook wouldn’t be shouting that from the rooftops if it were so?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#122
post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

> Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this?

They probably are, but not good enough. These things can be surprisingly hard to detect. Post hoc it is easy to see the bias, but it isn't so easy before you deploy the models.

If we take racial connotations out of it then we could say that the algorithm is doing quite well because it got the larger hierarchical class correct, primate. The algorithm doesn't know the racial connotations, it just knows the data and what metric you were seeking. BUT considering the racial and historical context this is NOT an acceptable answer (not even close).

I've made a few comments in the past about bias and how many machine learning people are deploying models without understanding them. This is what happens when you don't try to understand statistics and particularly long tail distributions. gumboshoes mentioned that Google just removed the primate type labels. That's a solution, but honestly not a great one (technically speaking). But this solution is far easier than technically fixing the problem (I'd wager that putting a strong loss penalty for misclassifiying a black person as an ape is not enough). If you follow the links from jcims then you might notice that a lot of those faces are white. Would it be all that surprising if Google trained from the FFHQ (Flickr) Dataset?[0] A dataset known to have a strong bias towards white faces. We actually saw that when Pulse[1] turned Obama white (do note that if you didn't know the left picture was a black person and who they were that this is a decent (key word) representation). So it is pretty likely that _some_ problems could simply be fixed by better datasets (This part of the LeCunn controversy last year).

Though datasets aren't the only problems here. ML can algorithmically highlight bias in datasets. Often research papers are metric hacking, or going for the highest accuracy that they can get[2]. This leaderboardism undermines some of the usage and often there's a disconnect between researchers and those in production. With large and complex datasets we might be targeting leaderboard scores until we have a sufficient accuracy on that dataset before we start focusing on bias on that dataset (or more often we, sadly, just move to a more complex dataset and start the whole process over again). There's not many people working on the biased aspects of ML systems (both in data bias and algorithmic bias), but as more people are putting these tools into production we're running into walls. Many of these people are not thinking about how these models are trained or the bias that they contain. They go to the leaderboard and pick the best pre-trained model and hit go, maybe tuning on their dataset. Tuning doesn't eliminate the bias in the pre-training (it can actually amplify it!). ~~Money~~Scale is NOT all you need, as GAMF often tries to sell. (or some try to sell augmentation as all you need)

These problems won't be solved without significant research into both data and algorithmic bias. They won't be solved until those in production also understand these principles and robust testing methods are created to find these biases. Until people understand that a good ImageNet (or even JFT-300M) score doesn't mean your model will generalize well to real world data (though there is a correlation).

So with that in mind, I'll make a prediction that rather than seeing fewer cases of these mistakes rather we're going to see more (I'd actually argue that there's a lot of this currently happening that you just don't see). The AI hype isn't dying down and more people are entering that don't want to learn the math. "Throw a neural net at it" is not and never will be the answer. Anyone saying that is selling snake oil.

I don't want people to think I'm anti-ML. In fact I'm a ML researcher. But there's a hard reality we need to face in our field. We've made a lot of progress in the last decade that is very exciting, but we've got a long way to go as well. We can't just have everyone focusing on leaderboard scores and expect to solve our problems.

[0] https://github.com/NVlabs/ffhq-dataset

[1] https://twitter.com/Chicken3gg/status/1274314622447820801

[2] https://twitter.com/emilymbender/status/1434874728682901507

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#123
post #88

I don't like these stories. It always trends towards the most inflammatory arguments, those being inherint bias and unconscious racism put upon our technology. Real issues in those topics aside, are any articles like this doing anything but feeding flames and generating ad revenue? Instead, I want to talk about pareidolia. Humans are social creatures. We have evolved to identify others of our kind and read their expr…

I think your comment is a bit dismissive. Facebook is not the first to encounter this, it happened 6/7 years ago and they should have known better. Secondly, if the Data Scientist working on this were all black, this would not have happened, just like the automatic soap dispensers in bathrooms.

What’s this about soap dispensers?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#124
post #60
post #15

This happened to both Google Photos and Flickr too. Which makes it an inexcusable mistake to make in 2021 - how are you not testing for this? Google Photos in 2015: https://www.wired.com/story/when-it-comes-to-gorillas-google... Flickr in 2015: https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/ne...

This reminds me of a favorite tweet from 2013: "Then Google Maps was like, 'turn right on Malcolm Ten Boulevard' and I knew there were no black engineers working there" -- https://twitter.com/alliebland/status/402990270402543616 Facebook, like a lot of tech companies, has long had problems with diversity in engineering. Here's an article from April that discusses specific incidents and the broader background: https:/…

Your comment implies black engineers will check that Malcom X Boulevard is pronounced correctly. That's awfully specious.

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you heard? Words are literal violence and making me feel unsafe . This cannot stand, and the situation must be rectified, otherwise you are complicit.

You’re engaging in precisely the inflammatory rhetoric you seem to disagree with. EDIT: Hard to tell these days but other comments suggest the parent was being sarcastic.

I think the comment was missing a "/s".

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#126
post #88

I don't like these stories. It always trends towards the most inflammatory arguments, those being inherint bias and unconscious racism put upon our technology. Real issues in those topics aside, are any articles like this doing anything but feeding flames and generating ad revenue? Instead, I want to talk about pareidolia. Humans are social creatures. We have evolved to identify others of our kind and read their expr…

You put a strong focus on how we evolved to deeply care about small facial expression differences and face features to identify and interact with an individual.

These stories are about how we also deeply care about labels and categorization. Aren't we just looking at the natural selection (making them not "last long") of these way too rough AIs that step on bounderies that are pretty important to a lot of people ?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Haven't you heard? Words are literal violence and making me feel unsafe . This cannot stand, and the situation must be rectified, otherwise you are complicit.

You’re engaging in precisely the inflammatory rhetoric you seem to disagree with. EDIT: Hard to tell these days but other comments suggest the parent was being sarcastic.

I think they were attempting to portray an example of the rhetoric they don’t like. I don’t think they meant those things but tone is hard online. Unless I misunderstood

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#128
post #90
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason these companies don't fix these systems is because they don't know how. It is easier to remove certain outputs or retire the whole system. There is no line of code they can tweak.

[self-censored to prevent further downvotes because HN is downvoting me for what I said and the delete button is gone; sorry it seems discussion about solutions to racial issues isn't welcome here]

Is there a sizable population of unemployed black engineers living in the United States to hire from? What if the qualified candidates simply don’t exist to fill the seats?

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#129
post #88

I don't like these stories. It always trends towards the most inflammatory arguments, those being inherint bias and unconscious racism put upon our technology. Real issues in those topics aside, are any articles like this doing anything but feeding flames and generating ad revenue? Instead, I want to talk about pareidolia. Humans are social creatures. We have evolved to identify others of our kind and read their expr…

[deleted]

Re: Facebook apology as AI labels black men 'primates'

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Us humans are super good at distinguishing faces. So what's obviously different to us might not be so clear to an AI or another species.

Us humans can tell the difference between a human eye and a gorilla eye 100% of the time because it's incredibly easy.

What a silly claim. If there was a way we could easily put money on that, I'd have no trouble finding an example to prove you wrong.
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