Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters? • Hacker News Board

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#121

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 4:46 AM UTC

syops wrote: post #119

TameAntelope wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, ad hominem occurs when you use who a person is rather than their argument to claim they are incorrect. Here's a definition from Google: > (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining. Nothing about a reputation or using it to discredit them. For example, I'm not a calculus teacher, therefore I couldn't possibly form a valid argument about how teaching works.…

You don’t know what an ad hominem is. You are incorrectly applying the definition. It is not an argumentative fallacy to ask the basis by which a person’s assertions have been formed. You’ve made lots of claims about teaching but clearly you have no experience to back it up and (this is important) you have not provided any citations to back up your assertions. People have to make judgments with imperfect knowledge. I…

[deleted]

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#122

Post by cheesetable » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:31 AM UTC

jl6 wrote: post #62

I guess the word progressive here isn’t helpful because there’s a huge diversity of thought that gets swept up under that label. But if you take it to mean the intersectional flavor of progressive that focuses on issues of disadvantage and discrimination, then the idea of a generic lottery seems right up their alley . If the genetic lottery has winners and losers, surely that’s pure gold to progressive politics! It’s…

I think it's for fear of appeal to genetics, which has historically been used to justify violations of human rights.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#123

Post by varyherb » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:36 AM UTC

lifeisstillgood wrote: post #10

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

I like to feel the same way as your colleagues about "everyone can learn to code". I can definitely say that there are many people for whom it is a struggle - even those on college courses. But a hundred years ago we could easily have the same conversation about simply reading and writing - they (the poor, women, or "lower class" ) luke not be taught to read. But it turns out that if you start young enough, and put e…

"In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto: Anyone can cook. But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere." [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ratatouille_(film)

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#124

Post by ogma » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:38 AM UTC

brailsafe wrote: post #3

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

Likewise, it's my my less experienced impression that some people just can't get (or at least it's overwhelmingly more difficult) basic programming concepts with even a visual building block system

And why would we ever draw conclusions about genetics, even if what the two of you are saying is true?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#125

Post by vidarh » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:42 AM UTC

syops wrote: post #48

TameAntelope wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope you don't think this article in any way supports your belief that some people can't learn algebra/calculus due to any kind of genetic traits, because I don't think the complexity of either rises to the level of "difficulty" that only gifted minds can comprehend. Very, very little in this world does. Your belief should probably be considered heretical, even among your conservative colleagues, because your colle…

My belief comes my experience teaching math the past 20 years. I think we both agree that mentally disabled people can’t learn algebra. Do you have any evidence that these are the only people incapable of learning algebra? I have lots of anecdotal evidence that the set of people who can’t learn algebra is much larger than the set of mentally disabled people.

That you're treating "mentally disabled" as some homogenous group totally strips you of any authority on the subject.

To turn it around: Do you have any evidence that your "anecdotal evidence" doesn't simply reflect your teaching skills?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#126

Post by ogma » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:45 AM UTC

fallingknife wrote: post #16

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

There are some questions science is not allowed to ask now. This is, of course, because they fear the possible findings. And I laugh every time some progressive I know shits on the Republicans for being "anti-science." (not that they are any better)

You sound like an idiot.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#127

Post by SilverRed » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:50 AM UTC

DangitBobby wrote: post #76

People strongly want to believe that intelligence doesn't have a strong genetic component, I think mainly for moral reasons. If not everyone can be expected to learn and be proficient in everything due to genetics, then suddenly merit itself is also based strongly on luck, and now the belief that people with greater merit should have better lives no longer seems fair. Intelligence is now just another gift to the fort…

Even without genetics this problem still exists. What about the people with parents who push their kids harder? What about the people born in areas with better education?

You could push these questions all the way to debating if you ever had any free will to begin with or if your whole life was the result of your environment. And ultimately does it even matter what the answers to these questions are? If rewarding people for being smarter drives the population to move towards the goal, then why not keep things like that?

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#128

Post by DanHulton » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

You're making a lot of leaps of logic here, which might be why your colleagues are disagreeing with you. You go from "not everyone can learn algebra or calculus" and "mental disabilities exist" to "therefore intelligence is a scale and controlled by genetics and unalterable," which doesn't really track.

Your previous education, your upbringing, your cultural values, these things all also have huge effects on your aptitudes, and you've just dismissed them out of hand, apparently in favour of pre-determined genetic intelligence. I mean, all I know of you is this comment, so I could easily be missing a lot more context about this argument you've had, but it sounds like you have an axe to grind, not a carefully-considered conclusion.

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#129

Post by black_13 » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:54 AM UTC

This is another form of Calvinism or predestination with a university label on it

Re: Can progressives be convinced that genetics matters?

#130

Post by bawolff » Tue, Sep 07, 2021, 5:56 AM UTC

syops wrote: post #2

From the article: Over the next year, a biosciences working group revised the program’s funding guidelines, stipulating in the final draft that it would not support any research into the first-order effects of genes on behavior or social outcomes. The fact that this area is controversial suggests to me that it is worth exploration. I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely con…

> I’ve taught mathematics at community colleges for over 20 years and I’m absolutely convinced that not all people can learn algebra or calculus. To me it is obvious this is so since the mentally disabled can’t. There’s a level of “intelligence” that’s necessary to learn a given topic. Not everyone can learn all topics.

I think most people agree that there are extremes. There probably exists a small number of people who literally cannot (just like how 1 in a million could probably teach themselves calculus at age 10, also exists). However it's a big jump to conclude that even a small percentage of the people at your college cannot in the literal sense - i.e. if their life depended on it, they had all the resources they could want, they had no other distractions.