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Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

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Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#121

Post by ricardobeat »

pcr910303 wrote: post #103

It’s not usual for news on my country to be on top of HN. Very unexpected. I’m guessing though that the South Korean market is be significant enough for Apple and Google to not just pull out it’s business from South Korea and call it a day. I guess this is, in some kind, a victory against the huge companies. But… personally I do find sad that this would be detrimental to South Korean app UX. Stripe isn’t a thing here…

Apple Pay is already available as an API, you can even use it on the web.

Indeed would be nice to centralize all subscriptions, we have yet to see how they would interface with 3rd party payment options. But on the whole this should be a win - if anything, those competitors will have a strong incentive to improve their UX.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#122

Post by Vespasian »

mrtksn wrote: post #106
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You realize that you don't have to deal with "boring complexity" when you use plenty of other payment processors, like Stripe, right? And instead of being charged 30%, you get charged a transaction fee, plus ~3%.

It doesn't work like that. Here is the Stipe page with description of what you need to do: https://stripe.com/docs/tax/registering Essentially, you need to register with the authorities of all the markets you would like to support. Different trade agreements with each country, different documents, different language. So you pay %3 instead %30 and then give the rest to the lawyers and accountants. Good luck with that.

Your app might only be targeted at a single country or a single market with "easy" taxation rules across borders like the EU.

Companies do that all the time and if they see the value of being available globally by paying apple 30% that's fine as well.

However right now we don't know whether such a service is in fact worth 30% percent because Google and Apple effectively prevent a competitor from offering lower prices

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#123

Post by pindab0ter »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #79
stirlo wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we can all agree that transfer pricing and the Double Irish Dutch sandwich were not intended to be used in the way they have been by modern multinationals.

What is stopping the governments from changing the laws to make it illegal? I do not understand the concept of expecting an entity to pay taxes they are not liable for paying.

Because that would be bad for 'het vestigingsklimaat'; the branch/business climate.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#124

Post by mrtksn »

Vespasian wrote: post #122
mrtksn wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't work like that. Here is the Stipe page with description of what you need to do: https://stripe.com/docs/tax/registering Essentially, you need to register with the authorities of all the markets you would like to support. Different trade agreements with each country, different documents, different language. So you pay %3 instead %30 and then give the rest to the lawyers and accountants. Good luck with that.

Your app might only be targeted at a single country or a single market with "easy" taxation rules across borders like the EU. Companies do that all the time and if they see the value of being available globally by paying apple 30% that's fine as well. However right now we don't know whether such a service is in fact worth 30% percent because Google and Apple effectively prevent a competitor from offering lower prices

Obviously everyone can do whatever they like, I am pointing out the burden this puts on smaller developers.

Suddenly, creating and distributing apps can get prohibitive for smaller developers.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#125

Post by simondotau »

ethbr0 wrote: post #113
seanalltogether wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should I pay Apple for the right to build a Mac app, or Windows for using their desktop apis? Maybe I should have to pay mozilla and google every time someone visiting my website and I use a piece of javascript that executes in their browsers?

Or maybe Google should have to pay Oracle for duplicating the layout of standard Java classes.

Indeed, though here we're talking about developers literally including Apple proprietary code in their build process.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#126

Post by rkangel »

pcr910303 wrote: post #103

It’s not usual for news on my country to be on top of HN. Very unexpected. I’m guessing though that the South Korean market is be significant enough for Apple and Google to not just pull out it’s business from South Korea and call it a day. I guess this is, in some kind, a victory against the huge companies. But… personally I do find sad that this would be detrimental to South Korean app UX. Stripe isn’t a thing here…

> I’m guessing though that the South Korean market is be significant enough for Apple and Google to not just pull out it’s business from South Korea and call it a day.

I think that's right. The next step would be for a large enough market to have a similar law, and then they'll just have that as their policy globally. That probably means EU or US.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#127

Post by Vespasian »

mrtksn wrote: post #108
stirlo wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but there will be more gatekeepers to deal with. They’re not mandating support for alternative payment providers merely saying Apple and Google cannot prevent you as a developer offering an alternative to your users. Whether you decide to support alternatives is up to you but when you can use stripe for a 2% fee or Apple/Google with 30% how can you be worse off?

No one mandates to support AppStore or Google Play in first place. That's something you do if you want to reach the users of that service.

Companies want to reach the users of the devices.

Apple and Google effectively prevent you from doing that without being in their stores. The fact that "technically" you can install apps on android and "technically" users can get an apple dev certificate / or sometimes jailbreak their device are nothing more than a single atom layer thick fig leaf.

These two companies effectively have a duopoly on the mobile phone market and act accordingly.

Edit: Corrected to not attack the parent commenter.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#128

Post by snarf21 »

vbezhenar wrote: post #42
bubblethink wrote: post #12

Is there a better source and the text of the law ? Payment systems are a proxy for the fee since there isn't an explicit publishing fee. It would be quite straightforward for both Apple and Google to charge a publishing fee, which may end up close to the current rent. The larger issue is that there aren't alternative app stores. Apple doesn't allow them at all, and Google severely restricts them at the technical and…

There are plenty of alternative app stores for Android. Google restricts them, but not severely. Android 12 will lift some important restrictions from alternative app stores. I'm not trying to portrait Google as innocent, there's still work to be done. But they are absolutely in different leagues with Apple when it comes to user freedom.

While true, they wouldn't be so generous if they were making it on the backend via search. They don't care that much what store the user uses as long as they search on Google. Do they offer any "user freedom" there?

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#129

Post by mrtksn »

yobbo wrote: post #66
mrtksn wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's going to be a hell for the users and the smaller developers. Devs will have to support multiple platforms, different API and options. Also different legal arrangements would be needed as each country has different laws and processes. Remember the agreements and forms we fill for different countries when we want to sell paid apps/features on App Store? I also can't wait to pay account fees for many app stores and…

> I despise platform fragmentations It is fair to point out that "platform fragmentation" occurs because of the policies of Apple and Google, not because of regulation. If they had some altruistic care for user/dev experience, the platforms would be open and frictionless to begin with. Their aim is to insert friction at all points of interoperability, and remove friction inside of their own platform.

Nothing is altruistic. It's simply business and business is about to get harder for smaller developers.

Re: Apple and Google must allow other in-app payment systems, Korean law declares

#130

Post by perryizgr8 »

commoner wrote: post #58
perryizgr8 wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it is not the same issue. Airbnb doesn't have a say if I make arrangements of my own with the host. We lose the benefits and security provided by airbnb if we think that airbnb's cut is unjustified. I only wish we (users and devs) could do that on Ios.

Actually, Airbnb does have strict anti-steering rules just like Apple and Google do. Several lines from their off-platform policy: > In order to protect our community and business, the following behaviors are prohibited: > Taking people off of the Airbnb platform for new, partial, or future bookings > Contacting potential guests prior to booking on Airbnb to move the booking off of Airbnb (ex: offering discounts to b…

I get that. But what will they do? I can still flout their rules. Problem with iOS is that I can't do what I want with the hardware I paid for.
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