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Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

cato-at-liberty.org

121–130 of 241 posts

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#121
My brother is currently working with the Adams County school system which is switching to an entirely new system of public education. http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/22189278/detail.html

They will no longer have traditional grades like Grade 7, Grade 8, etc, instead they will only have levels, and all students of a certain level will share the same classroom. When you level up in Math 10, you move to Math 11, even if you're still only in English 6. Your age no longer has any bearing on the level you belong in, only your ability.

The educational track will now be entirely in the hands of the students and they have until the age of 20 I believe to "graduate" from high school under the new system with a certain number of levels achieved.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#122
post #50

I'm a parent of two who does NOT plan on putting his kids in public school because I think they won't be served well there (plan on "home schooling"). My 5yo uses Khan Academy and it seems to be great. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. That said, I get sick of everyone piling on public school whenever something like this comes up. Public school is set to the following task: "take everyone , eve…

I can tell you my daughter did very well in most subjects in private school, but had a terrible time with math. We switched her to a public school this year.* She has done better overall, and her math has improved most of all. There are some other factors involved (I'm not in residency, we like where we live in general, we're not facing the possibility of being upside down in a house, etc), but I can't say enough tha…

regarding Kahn Academy: I don't know. My 5 year old is competitive so the game mechanics work well. She's been using pbskids.org for years playing educational games, so it comes very naturally at this point. Also, she likes to learn :p Mostly I think it's her competitive nature.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#123
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well put. Finally, I basically hate most aspects of public school. I was ready to agree with this. But then I reflected. What I really hated were my rotten peers (and, to an extent, my rotten self) from around the start of junior high to the end of high school. They weren't horrible, mind you. Just middle-of-the-distribution-curve kids, with the inevitable psychopath or two. I don't think privatization is going to fi…

By no means universal, merely a reflection of my experiences. For example, I was an exchange student for a year and when I came back I was told I'd get no credits for it because I couldn't produce a report card , so I was held back (i.e. punished for studying in a diff. country for a year). Same year: moved from another state, forced to take freshman "earth & environmental sciences" because it's a state requirement.…

The key with the public school system is to leverage your statistical power. When I was in school I told them I wasn't going to take all the optional blocks and instead would have spares. They said that it was a school policy blah blah blah.

I told them that the School Act defined no such requirement and being older than 16 I was no longer required to be in school at all so they could either let me have empty blocks or kick me out for violating the school policy on spare blocks. Being a rather articulate student I would be willing to write a letter to the editor explaining how a student who could sleep through math class and still get an A in the course was being forced out of school despite fulfilling the requirements of the School Act.

They could have another graduate on their rolls or another drop out, it was their choice.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#124
post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Cato free-market spin is questionable and not terribly well suited to Hacker News" As if Hacker News is somehow more qualified on economic issues than Cato, which has 10 Nobel Laureates? F. A. Hayek Milton Friedman James M. Buchanan Robert Mundell Edward C. Prescott Douglass C. North Vernon L. Smith Gary S. Becker Ronald Coase Thomas C. Schelling http://www.cato.org/people/nobel-index.html

You seem to be arguing against a point I didn't make. I didn't say that "Hacker News is more qualified on economic issues than Cato" as you put it. I said that I found the case made in this blog post to be questionable and that this political content is not well-suited to Hacker News. I was not impeaching the intellectual output of the Nobel laureates associated with the Cato institute, but I do have to note here tha…

If politics is not suitable for HN then why do we have lots of articles about 'open source', patent reform, privacy issues regarding Facebook,Twitter, articles about wikileaks, lulzsec, the FBI, etc.

These are all primarily political and non-technical issues that affect our industry just as the Khan Academy affects our ability to learn in the politicized education industry.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#125
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Private schools will lead to a marketing driven education system that preys on peoples ignorance. Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad". Take an ad for the Macbook Air. It shows a stylish person happily using the Air to do something fun. Now consider an ad for a private school that shows a child happily benefitting from something he/she learned at the school being advertised. Maybe the ad shows a graduate getting accepted into a prestigious college or…

Your argument is essentially "marketing is bad". Which is a shadow argument for "capitalism is bad".

While your formulation is deliberately obtuse, the underlying sentiment can be quite damning for a certain kind of free market fan-boy, the kind who insists that buyers in a market are rational in some individual or even collective sense, that they somehow optimize their own happiness or utility function.

That notion is patently absurd, and is actually flatly and irrefutably countered by the mere existence of marketing. If the decision-making process is rational, then there is no need, nor even ability, to forge emotional connections with brands through marketing. This is a plain fact that you do not seem to get. To wit:

Ads are often aspirational and emotional, and do not necessarily contain false information. Sure, paying tuition at a school won't get you into a prestigious school and owning a MB Air won't make you happy. But an ad communicating the virtues of a great product is a good thing if it informs consumers of the product.

You've cited two examples where ads are certainly misleading, and then seemed to imply that those ads "do not necessarily contain false information," as if they were therefore not deceptive. By attempting to short-circuit the decision-making process, by putting the emotional cart before the rational horse, the ads you describe are fundamentally deceptive. That ads like that exist, that they are paid for by people with skin in the game, and that they work, are all testament to the fundamental irrationality of market players on both an individual and aggregate level. Namely, they can be swayed by a manufactured emotional response before even having gone through the rational decision-making process.

So, the argument for which your reduction ad absurdum is actually a shadow is, "Marketing exists, therefore there is a fundamental problem with the underpinnings of free market theory. It does not match reality in one of the important ways that it purports."

You conclude:

[I]f you think ads are bad then the only solution is for the government to start its own version of 'consumer reports' and to publish a simple list of products ranked according to attributes. Hardly a remotely practical or plausible solution.

I have to say, that's quite a gem. In reverse order, I guess, is the best way to address it. Last, your point about it being impractical or implausible is vacuous and, further, not germane. How would the impracticality of any given solution affect the existence or nature of the underlying problem? Second-to-last, if you really believe that the solution you offered is the "only solution", then that is a failure only of your own imagination. One could at least imagine a tighter regulation of advertising claims, for example. (It's suspicious that the "only solution" you offer is the most oppressive and impractical one. Triumphalism like this is rarely the hallmark of independent thought, but often stems from having swallowed someone's propaganda whole.) Third-to-last and finally, the "if you think ads are bad" remark is hardly the most charitable characterization of the author's original point, and is in fact what is termed an "overgeneralization," a kind of straw man. Some more charitable attempts might be, "If you think that advertising about such important and life-changing things like which school to go to will carry unsustainable hazards,..." See how much closer we are to a solution just by framing the question fairly? Granted, the solutions one might come up with from there are perhaps less simplistic and less susceptible to vilification on ideological grounds, and that might not suit your rhetorical purpose. However, I submit that this approach has a countervailing good quality that ultimately recommends it. It shows good manners, maturity, and a willingness to actually further the discussion.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#126
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be picturing "ACME Education" creating schools in the model of factories under some scary privatization scheme. In fact, the current "public" model of centralized control, standardized curriculum, and cookie-cutter learning objectives is based on an antiquated understanding of human development, social systems, and motivation. In fact, by forcing a child to endure hours of boredom and conformity it prepar…

Private schools will lead to a marketing driven education system that preys on peoples ignorance. Here's a simple thought experiment. Look at all the education systems around the world, and ask if the ones with the best results are private or public.

There's an excellent PBS Frontline episode about private colleges in the US who spend more money on advertising than education:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/collegeinc/

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#127
post #120
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your worry about someone starting a school that is actually a sham are very much out of proportion. The only concern I'd have would be with religious schools which might teach BS instead of real stuff. But an appropriate level of government intervention in setting the curriculum and standard examinations would hopefully negate this problem. "Final question for one million points: roughly how old is the Earth,…

If the government sets the curriculum and standards then why have private schools? They will just cost more because they need to make their 15% margin.

Because the standards are minimum standards, and the private schools will endeavour to teach it better.

Let me explain how schools work where I come from. The final year of high school is spent largely doing a series of examinations standardized across the state, called the Higher School Certificate. (It's a bit more complicated than that, there's a school-based contribution to the exams which gets normalized with another set of exams, but let's just pretend it's one big set of exams now, which tests everything you learn in your last two years of school.) The marks are all tallied up, and every student in the state recieves a grade between 0 and 100 which ranks exactly how well they did in their exams (if you get 95.4 then you did better than 95.4% of the state, et cetera). These numbers (called Tertiary Entrance Rankings when I went through, though I think they've changed name several times since then) determine what courses and universities you can get into (none of this namby-pamby admissions essay slash extracurricular bullshit stuff like in the US)... or for those who don't go to university it will be a major line item on your CV when you start looking for work, so obviously all students are very keen on making sure they get a high TER. This provides an obvious point for competition between schools -- schools will compete between themselves to get the largest number of high TERs, and parents choosing schools for their children will look at this information when choosing schools.

It's heartless, and it's cut-throat, and it's incredibly stressful for the students, and it works great.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#128

Without attribution of who made the original statement and the context, this is completely meaningless. The Wired article is good, but the Cato article is not HN worthy at all. Purely political propaganda.

Why would you automatically declare an organization like Cato, which comprises a lot of living and dying Nobel Laureates (10 in fact) and read by a large number of PhDs in economics from our top universities, not HN worthy and "political propaganda"? It's a little absurd to make such a claim without substantiating your argument.

To be clear, my pronouncement of it not being HN worthy has nothing to with it being from Cato. But purely with the content of the article. Let me explain.

It opens with an unattributed quote. One that is somewhat surprising given what I've seen from the teachers and educators I know who have seen Khan Academy. While some complain about things like the rigor of the exercises, I've never heard the complaint about needing to slow down the education of students. Ben's statement, which Cato parrots needs to be attributed to someone. Cato should known better than to base a story on it.

Furthermore, the Cato story say, "This attitude is a natural outgrowth of our decision to operate education as a monopoly." Is it really? Where is the argument that substantiates such a claim?

Then they say, "In a competitive marketplace, educators have incentives to serve each individual child to the best of their ability, because each child can easily be enrolled elsewhere if they fail to do so." Again, can they substantiate that claim? Supermarkets exist in a competitive marketplace, but things like geography make it far from a frictionless market. Again, I'd love to see the data that supports this claim.

Lastly, "But why should a monopolist bother doing that? It’s easier just to feed children through the system on a uniform conveyor belt based on when they were born." Again, this is a claim with no finding in fact. And ignores a LOT of things like the fact that schools typically have single classes by grade, but subclasses broken out by skill. In my experience a child who is three grade levels ahead in math often should't be placed for social interaction with children three years older.

So again, my point is that this Cato article is full of speculation and absolutely no data. Now your appeals to Cato's authority (Nobel prizes and such) is fine. They should put their skills that won them the Noble prize to work and actually write credible stories. This was a junk story simply meant to attack public schools. Plain and simple. It's political propaganda. No data. No logical arguments. Not worthy of HN.

But that's just my opinion.

Re: Could You Modify It ‘To Stop Students From Becoming This Advanced?’

#129
post #114
post #28

That is why the for-profit Asian tutoring industry groups students by performance, not by age. There are “grades,” but they do not depend on when a student was born, only on what she knows and is able to do. I just interviewed Andrew Hsu for Startups Open Sourced and he mentioned this was very important in education. He had scored so high on his IQ test at 6 years old he was classified as "genius" and received 3 B.S.…

I'm sorry, but how the hell do you recieve three BS degrees at the age of sixteen (unless you mean BS degrees, which I'd imagine they'd really have to be...)

If you can learn the material you can pass classes by examination.
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