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Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

cnbc.com

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Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#121

Post by alasano »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #115
chrisco255 wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All blockchains are controlled by rough consensus. There's already like half a dozen Bitcoin forks in the wild (Bitcoin Cash, BSV, etc). When Bitcoin Cash forked off from the main chain in 2017, the community ultimately decided which chain was the "legitimate" one. Of course Bitcoin could decide to increase the issuance. In doing so, however, it would inevitably lead to a fork (with the 21M holdouts in one camp and t…

I agree with all of this - but the conclusion I reach is that proponents of Bitcoin are lying when they say it's unchangeable and certainly deflationary, or digital gold. It's changeable if people want it to change.

Anything is technically possible. In reality no one wants this to change the limit on the 21 million number and any proposal to modify this particular aspect of Bitcoin will get shot down immediately.

Lying would mean they know what they're saying isn't true. Practically speaking it's completely true.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#122

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

potiuper wrote: post #102

Is there a site like https://ethernodes.org/london , but also with a % of the hashpower? An anti-EIP 1559 mining cartel made an attempt to fork Ethereum and it would be interesting to know how close they came. https://www.coindesk.com/ethereum-mining-pools-threaten-cont...

I don't think that threat ever really materalized. MEV happened and then there was a suggestion by VB of switching to the PoS chain in response to a miner lead fork: https://notes.ethereum.org/@vbuterin/B1mUf6DXO

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#123

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

bugzz wrote: post #93
thegabez wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats the incentive for miners to continue to mine? They now just rely on tips? Won't they all just bail if they're not receiving enough tips to be profitable?

Each block still mints 2 new eth, in addition to tips (which should always remain small, even as base fee rises).

Not to mention MEV

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#124

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

thebean11 wrote: post #119
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the personal beliefs of users decide the technical future of the project. Personal beliefs and culture can change rapidly, or become overshadowed by new users. It just means that Bitcoin is only unchangeable because of the current whims of current users - nothing fundamental.

Humans decide the technical future of every project. The difference is which specific humans, how many, how they are selected, how they are incentivized etc.

I disagree with this - bitcoin is advertised as mathematically unbreakable (which it currently practically is, on a technical level, due to the cryptography) - but this level of bulletproof security is promoted as extended to all properties of the blockchain - which isn't, on a technical level, true.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#125

Post by polyomino »

X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #101
decentralised wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Another aspect of this is 51% attacks are recoverable for PoW, but are a permanent takeover condition for PoS networks. If a single entity ever accumulates more than half the tokens on a PoS network, they are unassailable. This is not true. PoS has many design flavours and the one Ethereum is planning on implementing includes random selection of validators and the amount staked has no influence on the inclusion or t…

Not to mention that Ethereum has shown willingness to hard fork to punish/reward specific actors. If an actor pulled off a 51% attack on Ethereum I'd be surprised if there wasn't an effort to just hard fork them out of their resources.

The whole network is a political facade, EEA controls the morals of the system so they can and will do whatever they want.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#126

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #110
X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ethereum is so enthusiastic about hard forks (or in ETH speak, upgrades) that they have the difficulty bomb which works like the debt ceiling. It's necessary to do a hard fork/upgrade every so often. Meanwhile bitcoin is so against hard forks/upgrades that they can basically only do soft forks and currently do that by a 90% voting agreement by miners. Bitcoin can not even increase the blocksize, the sure as hell aren…

So the personal beliefs of users decide the technical future of the project. Personal beliefs and culture can change rapidly, or become overshadowed by new users. It just means that Bitcoin is only unchangeable because of the current whims of current users - nothing fundamental.

Agreed.

In my view the Bitcoin community has only further entrenched their position as they taken on new users in a toxic Eternal September.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#127

Post by mftb »

CryptoPunk wrote: post #43
MuirsGhost wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People don't escape, they toil for a new master, on new ground. From sea to shining sea, the new world's plundered resources eventually turned into Bitcoin.

Very melodramatic, but inaccurate. The American portion of the New World offered significantly higher hourly wages for unskilled labor than the industrial heartland of Europe, by the late 1800s. And these wages grew at record rates all through the latter decades of the 1800s, in the midst of the largest influx of penniless workers in US history (causing the foreign born portion of the US population to reach 15% by 18…

Both you're points and the gp's are good, but yours aren't refuting his, only pointing out that the master grew more generous.

What's worth refuting in gp's post is the notion that humanity is "plundering" nature. Humanity is nature, that's what there's no escaping, unless you believe in the supernature.

I really don't think PoS or PoW are going to change what you guys are talking about.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#128

Post by etaioinshrdlu »

alasano wrote: post #116
etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #96

If Ethereum can hard fork like this, it stands to reason as well that the 21 Million Bitcoin limit is a lot more changeable than Bitcoin proponents would say. Or the opposite is true - and Ethereum is under heavily centralized control.

> it stands to reason No it doesn't. You're comparing something with no advantage to the people who are invested in Bitcoin to something which is meant to objectively improve Ethereum and a majority can agree upon.

I always heard it explained that it's full-node wallet users who tend to control the future direction of a blockchain, not just those invested or mining.

I would like the 21M limit to be increased so I can stand to make some profit mining! Currently that's impossible for me. I'd like it to change.

Re: Ethereum just activated its ‘London’ hard fork

#129

Post by thebean11 »

etaioinshrdlu wrote: post #124
thebean11 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans decide the technical future of every project. The difference is which specific humans, how many, how they are selected, how they are incentivized etc.

I disagree with this - bitcoin is advertised as mathematically unbreakable (which it currently practically is, on a technical level, due to the cryptography) - but this level of bulletproof security is promoted as extended to all properties of the blockchain - which isn't, on a technical level, true.

I disagree that's how it's promoted. You could make this argument about any piece of software (change the code to make it insecure, now look at the security hole!).

If someone were to do this with Bitcoin, users can decide whether to use the old chain or the new chain. Unlike a centralized service, no individual (or even group of people) can prevent you from using the version of the network you and your peers want to participate in.

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