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The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

nytimes.com

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Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#121

Post by mmatants »

jgfoot wrote: post #13

Very interesting: "Tarn sees his work in stridently ethical terms. He calls games like Angry Birds or Bejeweled, which ensnare players in addictive loops of frustration and gratification under the pretense that skill is required to win, 'abusive' -- a common diagnosis among those who get hooked on the games, but a surprising one from a game designer, ostensibly charged with doing the hooking. 'Many popular games tap…

Yeah right. Every game triggers OC tendencies and desires in people like me. I've regretted binging on both Minecraft and World of Warcraft.

The real reason for tension seems to be this: game designers see Zynga et al achieve the same level of player engagement without careful polish and production values (seemingly).

In other words, it's the age old plight of the artisan who invested time and money into details and craftsmanship, just to see it lose market share to cheaply-produced slop.

In that sense, old juggernauts like EA, who spend many millions in budgets on games, should be concerned too.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#122

Post by vessenes »

mvzink wrote: post #5

Having never been really involved with the Dwarf Fortress community/cult, but having played the game quite a bit, this exposé on the creator is extremely interesting. I always thought it must have taken a certain level of cleverness to build such an impressive simulation, but I honestly didn't think he'd be a Stanford Ph.D. Also, I'm honestly surprised they get that much in donations. It's very well deserved indeed a…

What's interesting is that they could likely be making notch-like levels of money if they went the minecraft route; some public server code and subscriptions would yield a huge amount of revenue. Honestly, I don't think they want it. If they were interested in doing that, they'd have found a publisher, and started segmenting up the game for sale.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#123

Post by vessenes »

bodyfour wrote: post #101
vessenes wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Wozniak recreated a disk controller in assembly on a motorola 68k chip in less than a day, and it worked pretty much perfectly first time, and you are complaining that he's not much of a hacker? What do you do in your spare time, if I may ask politely?

6502, not 68k

Oops, thanks!

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#124

Post by jarek »

forensic wrote: post #61
scott_s wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember, what one person can program when they're truly dedicated is a pretty incredible feat. And I wonder if the level of dedication he has demonstrated requires Asperger's. He has all of the classic symptoms, down to the the involuntary rocking. I've worked hard, and I've sacrificed a lot of my time to my work. But I'm not willing to sacrifice as much of my time as he has. And it's quite likely his life's work wi…

The only thing he's missing out on is romance and sex. His occupation and lifestyle appears to satisfy all the other typical human needs. Taking a DSM perspective is not the most enlightening perspective. The sex thing is a big problem. In the past, great artists were able to find companionship and sex despite poverty and oddness. Why is it that hackers have such difficulty? If Richard Stallman's medium was anything…

Errr, have you considered the possibility he doesn't have sex needs, or that his sex needs are not as much as a "normal" human, or that his needs can't be fulfilled by "normal" humans?

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#125

Post by LaGrange »

Swannie wrote: post #117

Nice article. Reminds me a little of the two lead characters of "Makers", the Cory Doctorow book. But this is real, and mildly depressing. You want guys like this to be successful, and to have the choice to live the spartan lifestyle if they choose, or one with a better choice of food, beverage, sleeping, etc. options. Sad to read that relationships are not important though :-(

Why? There is some sort of an assumption that a romantic relationship is something desirable by default, and someone's lack of interest is somehow "sad".

I agree that sometimes the reasons for staying out of the relationships business may be sad - or, more precisely, constitute sad stories. But assuming that someone can't achieve happiness in life without pursuing a relationship seems presumptuous, especially when faced with someone who clearly defines their objectives and needs differently.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#126

Post by Swannie »

LaGrange wrote: post #125
Swannie wrote: post #117

Nice article. Reminds me a little of the two lead characters of "Makers", the Cory Doctorow book. But this is real, and mildly depressing. You want guys like this to be successful, and to have the choice to live the spartan lifestyle if they choose, or one with a better choice of food, beverage, sleeping, etc. options. Sad to read that relationships are not important though :-(

Why? There is some sort of an assumption that a romantic relationship is something desirable by default, and someone's lack of interest is somehow "sad". I agree that sometimes the reasons for staying out of the relationships business may be sad - or, more precisely, constitute sad stories. But assuming that someone can't achieve happiness in life without pursuing a relationship seems presumptuous, especially when fa…

Well you are making the assumption I am referring to a romantic relationship.

The article presents (and this may be the reporters bias) the picture of someone with minimal social contact. Whilst I accept different people have a different level of need for social contact, this certainly feels more than a little unbalanced.

I realise whilst writing this reply that "sad" can be construed by some people in a derogatory sense. I didn't mean it in that way. I genuinely feel upset that, for whatever reasons, the lead developer feels that almost anything would be a distraction from his life's work, especially a partner and children. Intimate human relations - romantic or not - offer things no personal achievement can.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#127

Post by marvin »

forensic wrote: post #84
marvin wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've got it backwards. Women aren't scared of hackers, hackers are scared of women. This is a gross generalization, but it fits for the examples you mention. Yes, some nerds are completely unattractive and girl-repellent. But it doesn't take that much effort to become attractive, and a lot of hardcore computer guys are attracted to computers precisely because working with computers allows you to lead a solitary lif…

You're right. The issue is that for a woman to pick up one of these nerds she would have to be unusually aggressive in pursuing the nerd-genius and yet also unusually submissive since the nerd-genius (like any great artist) would have strange and demanding needs to which she would need to conform and satisfy. She'd have to be Courney Love, and there aren't many of those. And shed have to somehow meet the nerd despite…

  my sex needs come before my art
That's a good way to put it, that's how I feel as well ;) The monk analogy is really good; I'm guessing that monks were attracted to their lifestyle for the same reason the most introverted nerds are attracted to computers today.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#128

Post by guillaume_a »

tensor wrote: post #81
sunir wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry. I hear what you're saying and I think you are deeply wrong. (Oh no, someone is wrong on the Internet! :) Carmack, Gates, Zuck and Woz are the real deal. Saying they aren't because others toil in obscurity is some hopeless romanticism about hacker culture. A heart warmer, maybe?, but not justified. Just because financial outcomes are not matched to your hacker ideal doesn't invalidate either approach. The rich…

To be fair, Gates was more business man than any sort of hacker. While Zuckerberg may have actually coded his first product, unlike Gates, making a web app, no matter how popular, is far cry from what Carmack and Wozniak have done. Perhaps it's an illustration that it's often not fancy maths and algorithms that pay, but rather being in the right place at the right time with the right product. That said, there are ins…

Gates wrote, by himself, the best BAISC interpreter in the industry in a matter of months. At a time where there was no internet to check out the latest papers, StackOverflow to help you out, etc.

Way more impressive than sticking together a few perlscripts for a social networking website. Zuckerberg wasn't the main programmer behind Facebook, btw.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#129

Post by code_duck »

guillaume_a wrote: post #128
tensor wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Gates was more business man than any sort of hacker. While Zuckerberg may have actually coded his first product, unlike Gates, making a web app, no matter how popular, is far cry from what Carmack and Wozniak have done. Perhaps it's an illustration that it's often not fancy maths and algorithms that pay, but rather being in the right place at the right time with the right product. That said, there are ins…

Gates wrote, by himself, the best BAISC interpreter in the industry in a matter of months. At a time where there was no internet to check out the latest papers, StackOverflow to help you out, etc. Way more impressive than sticking together a few perlscripts for a social networking website. Zuckerberg wasn't the main programmer behind Facebook, btw.

Gates wrote the interpreter along with Paul Allen and Monte Davidoff... while he distinguished himself as a programmer, he's not quite that level of amazing. I get the impression that in a situation similar to (but not as lopsided as) Wozniak and Jobs' arrangement, Allen did a bit more of the technical heavy lifting and Gates planned and arranged the business side.

Re: The Brilliance of Dwarf Fortress

#130

Post by LaGrange »

Swannie wrote: post #126
LaGrange wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? There is some sort of an assumption that a romantic relationship is something desirable by default, and someone's lack of interest is somehow "sad". I agree that sometimes the reasons for staying out of the relationships business may be sad - or, more precisely, constitute sad stories. But assuming that someone can't achieve happiness in life without pursuing a relationship seems presumptuous, especially when fa…

Well you are making the assumption I am referring to a romantic relationship. The article presents (and this may be the reporters bias) the picture of someone with minimal social contact. Whilst I accept different people have a different level of need for social contact, this certainly feels more than a little unbalanced. I realise whilst writing this reply that "sad" can be construed by some people in a derogatory s…

OK, right, I did, though that doesn't really change that much.

Well, let's start by saying that intimate human relations are achievements as well. Also, computer programming, climbing and drinking soft drinks offer things no intimate human relations can. It sounds like sarcasm, but it is, actually, true.

I was, too, upset at first. I just noticed my upset has no real reason. It was about someone choosing a radically different way of life than mine, based on their own needs — that are radically different from mine. He's not even telling "no intimate human relationships." It's more as if he's satisfied by the relatively small group of close humans — his relationship with his brother seems quite close.

To sum up: I don't think his choice is sad. It's actually our limited view of possible life choices what's sad.

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