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Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

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Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#121

Post by throwaway4good »

diegocg wrote: post #112
throwaway4good wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you want the EU to do? Kick Hungary out? EU offers a lot to the Hungarian people in terms of travel, freedom of business, employment etc. In 10 years Orban likely will be gone. In the long run the liberal values of Europe will prevail.

Orban didn't become president by himself. There is social support for his platform and this platform will generate new leaders that will be like him or worse

He has similar platform to what you will find in many other european countries. Le Pen in France. AFD in Germany. Dansk folkeparti in Denmark.

How does EU "fight" that? By playing for the long run: freedom of movement, cultural exchange, freedom of business. In the long term this leads to a more liberal society, regardless of counter movements.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#122

Post by Ygg2 »

throwaway4good wrote: post #109
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

What do you want the EU to do? Kick Hungary out? EU offers a lot to the Hungarian people in terms of travel, freedom of business, employment etc. In 10 years Orban likely will be gone. In the long run the liberal values of Europe will prevail.

I somehow doubt it. EU's reaction to migrant crisis was everything but liberal.

And that's basically only the tip of the fuckberg that will be future migrations.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#123

Post by inglor_cz »

Hokusai wrote: post #66
jeroenhd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are tribal by nature. They will get into fights because their neighbour supports the "wrong" sports club, and you can extend that up to any level. Within a country there's city vs city, city vs countryside, and above country level there's EU vs US, or "the west" vs "the east". People group together with others that share certain cultural values. Ever since borders, passports and standard languages have been th…

> People are tribal by nature. Maybe, but what "tribe" are you part of is completely fluid. Your tribe can be extremely inclusive or exclusive. > Grand unification of humanity is a good ideal, one we should work towards, but it's not something that will be possible within our lifetimes. And it is quite of inevitable as communication and travel becomes cheaper. > I don't want a European superstate because I disagree w…

"Maybe, but what "tribe" are you part of is completely fluid"

There is a lot of friction when changing tribes. Especially if it means changing your religion, language and culture. Few people can make that jump.

I would not call this "completely fluid".

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#124

Post by poisonborz »

bwb wrote: post #11

I always am amazed by how many people value their nation over larger groups of human beings who are just like them... isn't it time to up our game as humans and start thinking bigger? Why not abolish nations within the EU and just become the EU with different provinces? Nationalism is an ancient mentality, get rid of it and start moving into larger groups who can do more. I keep reading about the North American Allia…

While this is a very simplistical and easy to rebuff argument as other replies did, a non-national "country" could be theoretically doable - save for the landmass, which is all occupied by existing ~national countries. Culture has not that much to do with national borders anymore. Just think about a "nation" of Elon Musk Followers, a nation of LGBTQ+ supporters, Real Madrid fans, or admirers of Oprah Winfrey.

Whenever we will be able to colonize landmasses like the Moon or Mars, it would be possible that these kind of artificial communities could flurish. Colonisation will most likely be done by market-driven corporations, which could allege with these communities based on donations/taxation.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#125

Post by Darmody »

pmontra wrote: post #100
hyper_dynamics wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should be expelled, but that's not possible. So the EU is indeed kinda helpless against member states gone rouge

I don't recommended this scenario but: the other states could join a new union and leave Hungary and possibly other states outside (the usual split into a good company and a bad one.) Lots of legal disputes but in international law the strongest party always makes the law and shrugs problems away. BTW, is it rouge (as in French for red) or rogue?

No, they can't make a new union, that's just stupid. It took decades to build the EU as it is now. Building something new isn't feasible.

Just look at the Brexit shitshow and that was only a country leaving.

And besides that, the EU has never been about controlling national governments. The common values thing it's something new they brought to the table because they want to expand their powers.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#127

Post by pmontra »

sharikone wrote: post #96
poisonborz wrote: post #28

If there is one single lasting international effect of Orbán and his party, it's how he demonstrated how EU is completely helpless against rouge states (as well). The delicate political balance of its parliamental politics make it impossible to react to any complex, even if lethal threats. The EU funds and fuels a Belorussian-style regime in its own heartland for a decade now, and all they can do are angry notices an…

It has actually elicited a response. Through many mechanisms now big countries in Europe have gained much more power than before, when the model was very egalitarian. And you can look at it in a very different light if you see it as Hungary becoming a small vassal state of Germany (an autocracy helps it to stay that way, and German manufacturers want the situation to remain like this) rather than a "rogue fascist" st…

As Italian I've got very few doubts about the outcome of a struggle between German and Italian influence. Maybe Italy vs France as it happened in Libya but not against Germany. As you wrote, "follow the money" and Germany has much more of that and can buy out Italy together with France at any time.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#128

Post by blocked_again »

saiya-jin wrote: post #98
blocked_again wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No your logic was it's not possible to have a country with so much diversity. I just showed a counter example.

You are comparing uncomparable, the population of India and EU are composed of very different people with different mindsets, expectations, opinions. Indians are generally much more docile (spent 6 months backpacking all around that place, it is really different in this regard). Also, comparing diversity is tricky - natives from Lappland have 0 in common with say Greek or Spaniards. Same would go for india's extremes…

I never said EU should become a country. I just showed an example of a country with more population and more or less the same diversity which made it work. Obviously there are pros and cons with both approaches. And I think EU is better off the way it is now.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#129

Post by ethbr0 »

biscotte_ wrote: post #89
blocked_again wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

India does this already. With 3x more population and probably has much more diversity and cultural differences than EU.

India and USA are often cites as examples of federations than EU should look to implement but that comparison is not valid. The US were a blank page, with roughly the same crowd starting with the same common goal and aspirations. Europe comes with 15centuries of nationlike structures and history. Latin and AngloSaxons have very different approaches on life and work (particularly visible in the “PIGS” recent controver…

Both India and the US also had their bloody moments to make it happen, in the Partition (and then Bangladesh Liberation War) and Civil War respectively.

Re: Hungarian journalists and critics of Orbán were targeted with Pegasus

#130

Post by WanderPanda »

roenxi wrote: post #105
Hokusai wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> EU is completely helpless against rouge states There is a point where politics depend on good intent. It does not matter if it is the EU, USA or China. If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. The main defense against this situation is that it does not work to improve citizens lives. It only benefits a small part of society and it will mak…

> If there is a part of the population that is radicalized and hate rhetoric is used that will destabilize any society. I'm going to point at this as an example of a very traditional, very political example unproductive thinking. One of the lessons people refuse to see in politics is that the people who vote for things they don't like might, potentially, be upset about something. There is a lack of reflection on how…

How can win-lose (lets say in the expected value) deals exist when the participants are free to partake or abstain from the deal?
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