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How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

quantamagazine.org

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Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#121
Man there's a lot of juicy stuff in this article (Woodin's Ultimate L program gets briefly alluded to at the end of the article).

I just want to point out, because the HN crowd seems to generally not be mathematical Platonists, that this entire article is implicitly assuming a Platonist philosophical foundation. This may cause confusion for lay readers who are not mathematical Platonists.

In other words the article assumes that mathematical objects have an objective existence: they either exist or they do not. Hence every single logical axiom has a truth value. You do not get to arbitrarily choose what logical axioms you want. If you do, you can end up choosing the "wrong one." Therefore it is an important question to understand whether the Continuum Hypothesis is true or not, even if it's independent of ZFC (and hence requires ultimately philosophical rather than mathematical arguments).

If you aren't a Platonist and instead view logical axioms as having no inherent truth value, but rather foundations that you can pick and choose from as necessary (where in one case you may choose to use an axiom and in another you may choose its negation), then all that might sound very strange to you. In that case, you should mentally substitute every instance of "true" or "false" in the article with "agrees or disagrees with the meta model used to examine the semantics of a logical theory." In particular, whenever we talk about a formal treatment of the semantics (i.e. model) of a theory, whether that be something like ZFC or a programming language, we must always make those statements relative to a meta-model.

For example if we talk about the formal semantics of a language like C, we must first posit a meta-model which already contains notions of things like "integer" and "natural number" which can be used to give meaning to statements such as "performed an operation n times." If you're not a Platonist then you probably believe that there are multiple possible meta-models you could use.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practical terms, "counting and measuring" means well-behaved arithmetic operations like addition, subtraction, multiplication, division, roots etc. (and often specific algebraic structures like rings, fields etc.) Rational and real numbers represent the most intuitive concept of quantity with different cardinality; natural numbers are more basic in theory but a restricted special case in most application (they can…

> The same applies to rational numbers (which exist more than real numbers) Wait, did you say there are more rationals than reals? Isn't that the other way around? I don't know if that's a slip of the tongue or I'm missing something in my recall of basic math lessons

Real numbers do not exist: they are convenient, but there is a high risk of crossing over from reality-relevant math to nonsense because of infinite calculations.

Real numbers are of course more numerous than rational numbers, just like unicorn horns are more numerous than horse horns, but it's an entirely different question.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#123

The only thing this proves is that mathematics is a soft science, where concepts like "number" and "infinite" are subjective. There are obviously infinite numbers, if you think there's a finite number of numbers, take that number and add one to that. QED

"Please don't post shallow dismissals, especially of other people's work. A good critical comment teaches us something."

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Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#124
post #8

I'm not trying to be flippant, although it may come off that way: why does any of this matter?

Others have addressed why it matters (or doesn't matter) when viewed from outside mathematics. But within mathematics, unsolved problems usually matter for two reasons: (1) When lots of really smart people spend lots of time trying to solve something, and fail to do so, it becomes even more interesting for other smart people. A well-known example is the Collatz Conjecture[0] which, by most accounts is a meaningless p…

I mean, at its simplest, the Collatz conjecture is a type of random walk, with the sequence either exponentially growing or exponentially shrinking, basically at random. It's statistically impossible that that any random walk will continue one direction forever, and once it randomly decays to 1 you're done.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#125
post #112
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-sandwich analogy is called Hilbert’s hotel. Saying that two sets have the same cardinality is equivalent to them having a bijection between them. So the claim is that the natural numbers and the natural numbers plus a sandwich have the same cardinality. This can be proved by the bijection: 0 -> sandwich 1 -> 0 2 -> 1 3 -> 2 . . . n -> n-1 . . . There is actually more though! If you had an infinite but countab…

Because everyone gave me such good and well meaning answers perhaps you’ll permit me a follow up. As I understand it we can say the cardinality of the reals is 2^aleph_0. Why is it cheating to create a bijection thusly: 0 -> 0 1 -> 1/(2^aleph_0) 2 -> 2/(2^aleph_0) etc?

Problem 1: 1/(2^aleph_0) isn't a real number. The real numbers don't contain infinitesimals. It's possible to formalize a number that behaves like 1/(2^aleph_0) "ought to" (surreals would be one possible approach), but the result won't be a real number.

Problem 2: There's no natural number that maps to (say) 1. Even if you do allow 1/(2^aleph_0), there's no finite number n that would make n/(2^aleph_0) = 1. With any reasonable definitions of the operations involved here, n/(2^aleph_0) would always be infinitesimal, so it would never equal a non-infinitesimal.

Problem 3: You're still skipping over infinitely many numbers. If 1/(2^aleph_0) is a number (and again, this requires going beyond the real numbers) and 1.5 is a number, then 1.5 * 1/(2^aleph_0) = 1.5/(2^aleph_0) is also a number, but no natural number gets mapped to that.

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#126
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does forcing work? To me it seems flawed (which obviously means I don't understand it fully). For diagonalization argument: 1) Assume every real can be assigned a natural number. 2) Do a bunch of steps that essentially find a new real that differs from any real you have listed from step 1. 3) Conclude that either your steps are flawed, or your initial assumption is wrong 4). Because your steps aren't flawed then…

"Didn't you just conclude that it's impossible to have a set of all real numbers?" Cantor's diagonalization proof proves that it's impossible to list all the real numbers with a list of size aleph-0, which is the cardinality of the set of natural numbers. The forcing proof is an attempt to prove you also can't do it with the a list of the size aleph-1, which is the size of the power set of aleph-0. It purports to pro…

That's weird. I thought that it was proven that existence of sets larger than aleph-0 but smaller than the number of real numbers is undecidable and you can add it (or negation of it) as additional axiom to math.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardinality_of_the_continuum

"The continuum hypothesis, which asserts that there are no sets whose cardinality is strictly between aleph-0 and c=aleph-1. The truth or falsity of this hypothesis is undecidable and cannot be proven within the widely used ZFC system of axioms."

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#127
post #112
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The non-sandwich analogy is called Hilbert’s hotel. Saying that two sets have the same cardinality is equivalent to them having a bijection between them. So the claim is that the natural numbers and the natural numbers plus a sandwich have the same cardinality. This can be proved by the bijection: 0 -> sandwich 1 -> 0 2 -> 1 3 -> 2 . . . n -> n-1 . . . There is actually more though! If you had an infinite but countab…

Because everyone gave me such good and well meaning answers perhaps you’ll permit me a follow up. As I understand it we can say the cardinality of the reals is 2^aleph_0. Why is it cheating to create a bijection thusly: 0 -> 0 1 -> 1/(2^aleph_0) 2 -> 2/(2^aleph_0) etc?

1/(2^{\aleph_0}) isn’t something that has a clear meaning.

2^{\aleph_0} is a cardinal number, which isn’t really a number in the sense of “an element of a field” or something like that. Dividing by it isn’t a well defined thing.

And, you certainly can’t just multiply any real number (or, any real number between 0 and 1) by 2^{\aleph_0} and get a different integer as a result.

(Now, if you work in the surreal numbers, you can define things like n/(2^{\aleph_0}) (identifying cardinals with the first ordinal of that cardinality), but these would not be real numbers. They would all be infinitesimal , smaller than 1/k for all positive integers k, and yet bigger than 0. Similarly in the surreal numbers, you could multiply real numbers between 0 and 1 by 2^{\aleph_0}, but you would get surreal numbers which are larger than every integer (in fact, larger than any countable ordinal))

Summary: What you wrote doesn’t define a mapping from the integers to the real numbers . (It can be interpreted as defining a map from integers to something else though.)

Re: How many real numbers exist? New proof moves closer to an answer

#128

Maybe I misunderstood the article but if the set of real numbers is finite then it should be countable. But I can easily prove that the set of real numbers or any subset of real numbers is not countable. Been a really long time since I’ve thought about this but wondering what I’m missing.

No, what the article is talking about is the question whether or not the cardinality of real numbers is the smallest uncountable infinity or some other, larger uncountable infinity. The only countable infinity is aleph-0, the cardinality of natural numbers, and Cantor showed that aleph-0 is too small to hold all reals. So reals must be uncountable, but there is an infinite hierarchy of uncountable infinities, and it is not known which one is the cardinality of reals (although in practice it's suspected to be either aleph-1, which is what the Continuum Hypothesis states, or aleph-2).
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