Building a vision of life without work (2015) • Hacker News Board

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#121

Post by decebalus1 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

solarengineer wrote: post #38

decebalus1 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is one of the biggest missing pieces in internet FIRE discussions. So much of the FIRE discourse is about not working that many don’t realize that they’re going to be extremely bored with 16 hours to fill every day. Worse, their friends are all busy with their lives. This is a frequent misunderstanding about early 'retirement'. It's not about not working at all. It's about not working for a living. Very import…

I regular realise that a lot of my bucket list items don't require money and I then go do them. I have also realised that there's no need to wait to write a book. I've procrastinated for many years and have finally got my act together and I'm writing one.

Those are all fair points and people do write books or do stuff off their bucket list while being happily and gainfully employed.

But people are different and not all jobs are the same. Some people don't have the time or energy [1]. Add the stress of supporting a family, a demanding boss and the fear of losing healthcare along with your job and you'll get to your bucket list either during the scarce vacation days or in your late 50s early 60s (if you're lucky).

This is what FIRE's all about. It's about freedom basically. Money == freedom to do whatever you want to do without fear of losing the bottom of Maslow's pyramid. This is especially valuable in the US, where there is no social safety net.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spoon_theory

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#122

Post by kerkeslager » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:11 PM UTC

adwn wrote: post #99

kerkeslager wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The subtext of many of the responses to this post is a self-congratulatory "I knew all along that his plan was unrealistic". It seems like the thing people like about the follow-up post is that they think it confirms their worldview. If we actually listen to the original author instead of looking for confirmation of our own worldviews, the author tells a different story. He says, (this is a copy-paste quote): "The in…

> His partner left him for another man and he was diagnosed with a serious medical issue. Both of those events are very common – especially medical issues. Once you're getting old, developing a "serious medical issue" is more common than not! Any plan which assumes that you'll neither break up with your partner nor develop medical issues for the rest of your life is a plan destined to fail.

...in which you cherry-pick one sentence from my post, ignoring the sentence before it. That's exactly why I said, "at least not any more unrealistic than any more traditional life plans".

Working a job doesn't fix either of these problems. At least in the US, many people who go bankrupt due to medical issues have health insurance, usually provided by their job. These problems are compounded if your plan was to work, but you can't work due to your medical problems. And while medical or disability insurance can theoretically account for these worst-case scenarios, they can be so costly that they may cause financial problems even if no disaster happens.

Divorce is also a major cause of bankruptcy, even if you're employed.

You're doing exactly what my previous post accused people of doing: gloating about how the author's plan failed, without looking at how plans that fit your worldview don't account for the same life events any better.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#123

Post by quietbritishjim » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:12 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #106

quietbritishjim wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> [article author, to wife] ... I thought that what you wanted was to live a life of freedom, with me. We’d talked about this. > [article author's wife] Not exactly. I wanted to have kids with you and work and be like everyone else. Live a normal life. I’m tired of being weird. And I don’t want to go back to work if you aren’t. That’s weird too. You wouldn’t even be a stay-at-home-dad. You’d be nothing. > [article au…

What it tells me is that there are two really important and serious things you need to consciously commit to in order to be compatible with this lifestyle. 1. Set aside that urge to keep up with the Joneses, and 2. Stop deriving life meaning from employment. These habits can be deeply ingrained in someone's personality, like an addiction in remission, and may rear their heads even if you agree to deliberately try to…

You seem to be saying exactly the same thing as the author, which is precisely what I was disagreeing with. I can think of THREE reasons to want to continue working past the point the author of the article did:

1. You derive meaning from work.

2. You want more shiny material stuff all the time for shallow "keeping up with the Joneses" reasons

3. You want to raise a family, which was not possible in the financial plan of the article's author.

You and the author both focussed on 2, but to me it sounds like the wife mainly wanted 3. Reason 2 may or may not be genetically ingrained, that is besides the point; wanting children definitely is, at least in some people. (A sibling comment suggested that they may not have been able to have genetic children for other reasons, but that doesn't necessarily stop the desire.)

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#124

Post by mym1990 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #114

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day? In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied…

I am a similar way and at least for me I feel somewhat programmed to be needing to do something or maybe even feeling the need for someone to tell me to do something so that I can feel like I am creating value(not at all saying you are like this, just a personal account). I am in a position where I can be unemployed with little consequence, but I'm afraid that the free time will just go to waste. And I think on a larger scale that is a big problem.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#125

Post by godot » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

low_common wrote: post #81

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

Are you rich/have no kids? Because most people probably cannot relate to the life you're living right now.

Although you replied that you did not read the article first, I think you still do make a valid point. Here is an excerpt from the article:

> Of course, some lucky people already know exactly what they’re retiring to, answers firmly in hand.

> Examples:

> It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit.

> I’m going to do a lot of parenting. My kids can easily eat 14 hours a day, every day.

The _second_ example here already calls out that it's going to be common to do parenting 14 hours a day if people retire early. For someone who has kids, it's pretty unlikely to be able to roll with life and see what comes up. It just isn't possible, with or without a job, being financially independent or not. And whether we like it or not, a large percentage of the population above 40 do have kids.

This is purely my opinion, but I'm actually not sure that, for a child past 2 years old or so, if it's a good idea for a parent to be with their child 24/7. I think there's a lot of value in learning social interactions with other children in a daycare or preschool. I did this exact thing for 3 years and am transitioning the child to preschool at 3 years old, and it has been difficult.

On top of it all, let's say your kids are school age, somewhere between 3 to 16. Let's say they go to school during the day, and you have free time during the day. There is another discussion to be had about your kids' mentality if they grow up with parents who don't need to work. Sure, maybe in the near future, in this next generation, we'll enter a society where work is unnecessary and everyone lives off of UBI, and maybe the discussion is moot. But assuming that won't be the case, would you want your children to grow up with the impression that when they grow up into adults there's no need to do any productive work, or have parents as role models who contribute meaningfully to society?

Maybe I haven't thought it through, maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'm at a point in life where I could feasibly "lean FIRE" if I really want to, but for the sake of my child I'd rather continue to work. Which then leads to answering this post, my FI and retirement almost isn't about me, it's about my child/children. Or maybe that just means I'm that guy who said "I'm going to do a lot of parenting" then.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#126

Post by neogodless » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #94

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" Great insight that is worth repeating. One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down…

In general the focus should be:

Be mindful. Informed. Increase your knowledge, consider alternatives, and make decisions given an expanded list of options. (Don't just go with the default, common, mainstream way of thinking that leads to people retiring at age 65 after decades of hating their job.)

I'm a proponent of many of the concepts of FIRE, but in some ways, the attitude started way before I started reading Get Rich Slowly, and Mr. Money Mustache. I'm all about putting effort into things I really care about, while being efficient and judicious with effort being put into things I don't care about. Work is usually not at the top of my list on things I care about. So I have changed jobs frequently to find ones that pay better than the last, and are also a better fit for me. Shorter commute. Better team. More engaging work.

Along the way, spending below my means and ensuring money I do spend actually provides the result I expect (i.e. lasting happiness that a lot of spending doesn't really provide) has been instrumental in making thoughtful decisions while also accumulating that cushion that can eventually wean me off paid work as a necessity.

In other words, I don't choose jobs that suck because they pay well, so I can get to a "finish line" faster. I put all the variables into play, and make sure I'm enjoying life now while also expanding the flexibility I'll have in the future.

While we agree on a lot of things, maybe we read different "FIRE discussions" because many of them factor these things in. Compulsory work limits your options, and even more so, spending all your money or beyond your means limits your options indefinitely. That doesn't mean retirement creates happiness, or is a prerequisite for a good life, but getting beyond that work requirement can certainly give you a lot more freedom in how you choose to use your time.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#127

Post by bambax » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

dcolkitt wrote: post #71

temp8964 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The conclusion came to me is that extreme working and extreme no-working are both bad in the long run. All you need is a work-family-life balance. I am also glad that the author now opens the door for getting married and even having a kid. Work, spouse, kids, the traditional way of life have been explored and chosen by human being for at least thousands of years. The psychological / economic needs for living with a f…

What's interesting is the radical change over the past century, from a life of pure leisure being the mark of the aristocratic upper class to the lumpenproletariat. I love how Downton Abbey conveys this now alien concept to us early on by having the Dowager Countess ask " what is a 'weekend'? ". The perfect modern counter-balance is the classic line from Office Space: " Well, you don't need a million dollars to do no…

Work as purpose is a rather novel idea. Max Weber is really helpful here, and his seminal book, while published in 1905, seems more relevant than ever.

It used to be that you worked just as much as you needed to, to sustain yourself. So much so that raising wages would immediately result in people working less, as they could earn the same amount of money with less work.

Then at some point work became a "calling" and working as hard as possible viewed as respectable, desirable and commendable.

I still think this is insane. There are so many things to do, so many things to think/dream about. So many moments to just do nothing and stare at nature. I don't have time for work.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#128

Post by handrous » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

alisonatwork wrote: post #74

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Got to admit that watching people struggle with the question of what to do without a job to fill their time is just completely wild to me. It is difficult for me to imagine someone who has so little they want to do outside of work that they can't easily find ways to fill up the 8+ hours a day their job takes from them. I have a list of things I'd like to do a mile long that I know I'll never actually find time to do…

It's truly astonishing how many people apparently have a psychological need to be occupied with work in order to find meaning from their life. I can think of nothing better than to finally never have to worry about working just to cover my rent and food. Being in tech, I've had the privilege to be able to quit my job every few years and take extended sabbaticals. Without fail those breaks have been the best times of…

I don't think most people, except maybe in the EU, experience enough time-off to ever feel what it's like to not be working, and also not be trying to work. Weekends and evenings are barely enough—if they are at all—to catch up with chores and such that accumulated during working hours (that is, unpaid work). Most folks have a couple weeks of vacation, which will tend to be eaten up finally fixing the fence or that dripping faucet or else frantically trying to do some Big Thing (usually some kind of trip) because actual time off is so rare that you don't want to "waste it".

Most people don't get any useful amount of actual free time until they retire. No wonder so many are lost when they do. They've had no practice at it, and have had all their time-requiring interests beaten out of them over decades of the work-week utterly dominating the rhythms of their life.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#129

Post by aidenn0 » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #96

kaycebasques wrote: post #92

I've been on a 1-year sabbatical as of 4 June 2021. Not the exact same as early retirement but I bet the motivations / experiences probably have parallels. I'll note my own responses as someone 1-month into a period of no work: > Let’s talk a bit about the idea of loss. Having a sense of loss is not restricted to things that you like or love. I don't feel that much yet, but intuitively I see how it might creep up in…

The author of the blog post followed up with a post-mortem of his FIRE experience several years later: https://livingafi.com/2021/03/17/the-2021-early-retirement-u... The TL;DR is that it was great for the first few years. He started diving deep into his writing passion and notes that he was very happy. Later, his writing hobby slowed and his partner became increasingly dissatisfied with their retirement lifestyle. S…

Some of that is probably just the age-group. I've become disconnected from many of my friends over the past 10 years as well, and I certainly haven't retired.

Re: Building a vision of life without work (2015)

#130

Post by zoba » Tue, Jul 13, 2021, 4:17 PM UTC

mikepurvis wrote: post #114

zoba wrote: post #67

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured lif…

Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day? In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied…

I'm quite happy with the outcome so far. Though, my aims are humble. My intention for this period of life (however long it lasts) is to live 'organically' and observe the results. My primary observation is that I'm happy consistently - something that was inconceivable with my old style of X to Y to Z goal planning.

In your second paragraph you mention trying to be as productive as possible during your time off. Seems like you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment there. If you instead approach that time off with 'whatever happens, happens' approach you'll be more forgiving of yourself and may actually be able to relax so you can be more productive later.

The theory I'm exploring is that happiness is healthy. By living happily, perhaps I am repairing whatever damage I did when I was so intensely on the career grind (it was rewarding but, ultimately unhealthy in a burnout way). And, by doing that repair, perhaps I'll be better suited to be even more productive.