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Why I will never pursue cheating again

behind-the-enemy-lines.blogspot.com

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Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#121

Post by ohashi »

justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

It amazes me that you cannot see it from his perspective. He tried to catch cheaters and was punished by the school system for it. He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy. Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay? Most of us probably wouldn't. It seems like a prudent financial decision for him.

The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up because he cannot do anything alone and is punished. Others either came to the same conclusion or don't know/care cheating is happening to begin with. I don't think I can simply blame him for the calculations he went through in making his decision.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#122

Post by wisty »

techiferous wrote: post #98
justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

"What a lazy coward." Ouch! This professor is caught between students who don't want to learn and an administration who does not know how to properly measure teacher performance. Give the guy a break; he's in a tough situation. By the way, insults and personal attacks are not welcome here at Hacker News.

Insults and personal attacks against (external) article authors seem to be treated as less taboo, as they are on topic, and less likely to cause a flame war. Still, it's a bit rude.

It's hardly fair to call the one guy trying to fix the system a coward, just because he decided he had better things to do.

Besides, "No tolerance" is a bad way to beat corruption, as an individual. The best way is to occasionally bring it up. You won't lose as many friends, but some people people will still think that a crackdown might be underway. You might feel stupid, only catching one or two cheats, but it's more effective in the long run than being too hard.

He's not a lazy coward. He's just not a great political player. His boss is a lazy coward, for putting him in a position where he has to know how to be positively Machiavellian in order to improve things.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#123

Post by Dove »

I am completely aghast.

This professor is considering only what path will avoid the most hassle and difficulty for himself. Any duty he might owe honest students, fellow faculty, or even society at large doesn't seem to figure into it. He seems to see no problem at all with effectively selling high grades to cheaters, so long as there's no risk or hassle involved for him.

And because he gets to use a term like Nash Equilibrium to describe it, he's not even ashamed.

Profoundly dishonorable.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#124

Post by abduhl »

onan_barbarian wrote: post #86
pbh wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your claim that the author has drawn the wrong conclusion relies on a major assertion for which you have failed to provide support. Specifically: why do you think a 22/108 cheating rate is non-standard for a large US research university's business school? Are there institutions that check such things in any sort of systematic fashion (e.g., TurnItIn run on a substantial portion of the classwork)? It seems to me that…

Ah, the starchy HN argument style, lacking only a demand that I provide citations. Unfortunately, you're deploying your pomposity in the service of refuting something I didn't actually write. I didn't say that 22/108 was "non-standard for a large US research university's business school". I said it was "big". It is big. This doesn't change if the norm at every other business school is 32/108. The OP also thought it w…

pbh brings up solid points. Stating that something is big will always lead to the question "relative to what?"

Your post indicates that you think 28/108 is big relative to what a normal cheating rate would be (as can be seen by your statement "he'd have gone back to 'normal' cheating rates"). How can you establish whether or not something is big relative to a norm when you haven't even established what the norm is?

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#125

Post by kahawe »

pnathan wrote: post #47
kahawe wrote: post #15

I don't know what it is with you US Americans and "cheating"... but it seems to be a very touchy subject in your culture, almost like violating someone's honors. I never understood that.

It is totally a question of honor. It is utterly dishonorable to cheat, and egregiously so at the levels described in the aforementioned blog. The goal of the scholastic experience is so that you, the student, learns something. If the school turns out people who didn't learn, they are producing worthlessness. It is a lie to say that you have a degree, when you really have a collection of credits that you cheated thro…

You are exaggerating by 200% and leading it ad absurdum.

"Cheating" for me means getting one or two hints at an exam and with the exam situation being what it is, those hints typically only really help to jog your memory if you did study. It does not mean downright plagiarizing your thesis and 90% of your studies.

But US Americans seem to be offended even at the idea of getting or sharing a single hint during an exam. Here in Europe you could easily loose "street cred" and be forever labeled as the worst kind of "nerd" if you did NOT at least try to help a fellow student on purpose. Again, I am not talking about writing 100% of homework for you but sharing a hint or a small piece of help during an exam.

Funnily, we had a few very, very high profile cases of plagiarized doctorates amongst politicians here in Germany. Their degree was taken away from them of course.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#126

Post by justin_vanw »

ohashi wrote: post #121
justin_vanw wrote: post #83

This professor is a huge part of the problem. He's a tenured professor saying "caring about cheating is counter productive", which to me says "I would rather have an easy life where I don't have to work hard than to protect the reputation of the institution I work for and ensure that students that graduate have learned something along the way". He complains he had to work almost 44 hours (2 hours * 22 cheaters) and r…

It amazes me that you cannot see it from his perspective. He tried to catch cheaters and was punished by the school system for it. He earned less money for trying to enforce a no cheating policy. Would you work twice the amount of time for less pay? Most of us probably wouldn't. It seems like a prudent financial decision for him. The problem seems systemic, he throws his hands in the air and gives up because he canno…

Since you asked, I would refuse to work anywhere that I was expected to stand aside and ignore fraud, or where I was punished for doing what everyone would agree is the right thing, in this case trying to catch and identify cheaters in compliance with the rules of the institution. I would rail against it every day and try to change the system by doing the right thing and calling out other faculty for not doing so, publicly.

It is likely that I would fail, but as I will sometimes announce loudly in the Milo office "I've got something to say! It's better to burn out than fade away!'

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#127

Post by wisty »

neutronicus wrote: post #109
Dove wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A math majors can just copy the homework. 90% of it is mechanical, and 10% requires a "twist". That may be true in the lower level courses, but around 400 level, the work switches over entirely from calculations to proofs. Proofs are as widely varied and difficult to copy as essays, and are much harder to edit without screwing up unless you really understand them.

I would say the proofs required for an undergrad math degree are "90% mechanical, 10% twist". If you have a general idea what a proof is supposed to look like, it's pretty easy to fill in the details.

There's a continuum, just like in other subjects.

As I've said, many students self-enforce (somewhat - it's a continuum), because a Math degree that you didn't earn is barely worth the paper it's printed on.

With most students self-enforcing, the exams can still be rigorous. The 400-level courses can still be rigorous. And nobody will complain that the exams and 400 levels are too hard, because they still learnt enough to deal with them.

It's not a result of Math being "harder to copy". Math is easier to copy than an essay, because it's just not as unique. The difference is cultural. Most Math students don't want to cheat their way through, and so the professors are under no pressure to be soft.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#128

Post by drivebyacct2 »

Good god you people are sure full of yourselves sometimes. You're telling me that if you put in extra effort in your daily jobs and got kicked in the ribs for it more than once... that you'd continue to do it and wouldn't be upset about it? Armchair ivory-towerists. I'm just aghast at the paragraphs of criticism I'm reading here for people that I can just imagine being upset with wasted and unappreciated effort.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#129

Post by justin_vanw »

abduhl wrote: post #119
justin_vanw wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't believe that 90% of majors copy homework. I can say I never saw any cheating at all on 400 level math homework at my university. I graded assignments for Number Theory for several semesters, and I can say I didn't see any cheating there either. Generally the homework is just meant to give you a good bit of practice, there is no way to pass the class without passing the exams.

There are varying degrees of cheating. There is flat out copying, which this article addresses, and then there are the lesser degrees of cheating. Having experienced upper, lower, and graduate level courses in math and engineering (as well as taught at the lower level) I can honestly say that the amount of people that directly copy another student's assignments is much higher than most people think. This type of chea…

The 'group study' thing is true, but often explicitly allowed by the professor. In the end the exams should sort it out, since homework is rarely worth more than a token amount of the total grade.

Re: Why I will never pursue cheating again

#130

Post by bostonscott »

graupel wrote: post #61

This is fascinating, aside from one huge, glaring bit of stupidness on the authors part - highlighted here: "One interesting observation: Almost all cheating happened within ethnic lines. Koreans copy from Koreans. Indians from Indians. Greeks from Greeks. Jews from Jews. Chinese from Chinese." Korea=country India=country Greece=country China=country Jewish=religion This would appear to show some form of bias, or at…

I noticed the same thing. I'd like to know what criteria he used for placing students in the "Jew" category. Perhaps he watched too many "films" by Goebbels.
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