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Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

nytimes.com

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Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#121

Post by refurb »

bigbillheck wrote: post #106
refurb wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How much do you know about the country post-war? The Vietnamese people paid a very heavy price for the North wining that war. Arguably the communists saw economic light, but plenty of people have been jailed as recently as last year for blogs they’ve written.

How much do you know about South Vietnam pre-war? (for starters: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_crisis )

Oh I know plenty. What, do tell, does the Buddhist crisis have to do with the authoritarian system in Vietnam today?

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#122

Post by pkphilip »

seanmcdirmid wrote: post #91
drewcoo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> spent half a century fighting totalitarianism By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets? Or do you mean fighting those puppets when they became inconvenient? I suspect what happened is not the history you think it is.

> By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets El Saud was put in place as rulers of Saudi Arabia by the British, not the Americans.

US has done "regime change" in many countries replacing elected officials with warlords/monarchs/dictators etc.

Consider Mossadegh in Iran - an elected, secular politician who was replaced to put Shah - a monarch, in power:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

Then, of course, all across Latin America: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_involvement_in_r...

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#123

Post by ridiculous_lol »

baybal2 wrote: post #116
ridiculous_lol wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Same with Israel, sinks USS Liberty, and then people on the hill go orgasmic, because "higher meaning" — whatever that means. I don't think it's fair to compare Israel with Saudi. The former is a functioning democracy and is ranks significantly better that its neighbors when it comes to Civil liberties.

It's not a functioning democracy, half of its population has no voting rights. And it's always been antagonistic with US, despite making pretty face. And, yes, they are in bed with the Saudis, now quite openly.

> It's not a functioning democracy, half of its population has no voting rights.

Exactly which "half" we are talking about here?

> And it's always been antagonistic with US, despite making pretty face.

They are a de-facto US ally. Doesn't matter how they behave publicly.

> And, yes, they are in bed with the Saudis, now quite openly.

What does that even mean? Pretty much every liberal democracy which recognizes the Saudi royal family and has economic ties with the kingdom is in "bed" with Saudis by that logic.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#124

Post by pvaldes »

Paradigma11 wrote: post #119
nzmsv wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Afghanistan? Really? You may want to look up who installed the Taliban in the first place.

The russians by indiscriminately killing 1.5 million ppl so that only the hard core extremists survived?

Nope. Try again.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#125

Post by _jujw »

refurb wrote: post #96
drewcoo wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> spent half a century fighting totalitarianism By destabilizing and ousting democratically elected leaders around the world and replacing them with our puppets? Or do you mean fighting those puppets when they became inconvenient? I suspect what happened is not the history you think it is.

Destabilizing oppressive regimens controlled by the Soviets. Arguably still oppressive after we’re done but better than before.

[flagged]

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#126

Post by viro »

_jujw wrote: post #125
refurb wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destabilizing oppressive regimens controlled by the Soviets. Arguably still oppressive after we’re done but better than before.

[flagged]

The facts are collectivism basically requires oppression. and those governments would just murder you if you didn't like it. So how about no we won't stop.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#127

Post by SkyMarshal »

_jujw wrote: post #125
refurb wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Destabilizing oppressive regimens controlled by the Soviets. Arguably still oppressive after we’re done but better than before.

[flagged]

One thing we Americans really need to learn is that Capitalism does not necessarily bring Democracy. It's very possible to have a capitalistic economy under an authoritarian regime, with multiple historical examples.

But after the Cold War ended, America/ns conflated Capitalism with Democracy, thinking they are one and the same, and that if we could bring bring the former to authoritarian nations, the latter would inevitably follow.

But they aren't, and it doesn't. If you want to spread Democracy and human rights, you have to spread Democracy and human rights. If Capitalism follows, fine, but it needs to be built on a foundation of freedom, represenative government, separation of power, checks and balances, and institutionalized protection of human rights, and it can't be relied upon to guarantee that.

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#128

Post by N1H1L »

dwater wrote: post #114
ashtonkem wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuinely doubt the Israeli Airforce could take on the rest of Europe. There are a lot of warplanes patrolling the Mediterranean Sea.

The point of the "mad dog" approach is not to win, but to let others know you will take them down with you, with the idea being that they will do what you want out of fear.

Mutually Assured Destruction (MAD) dog

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#129

Post by dragonwriter »

SkyMarshal wrote: post #127
_jujw wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

One thing we Americans really need to learn is that Capitalism does not necessarily bring Democracy. It's very possible to have a capitalistic economy under an authoritarian regime, with multiple historical examples. But after the Cold War ended, America/ns conflated Capitalism with Democracy, thinking they are one and the same, and that if we could bring bring the former to authoritarian nations, the latter would in…

> One thing we Americans really need to learn is that Capitalism does not necessarily bring Democracy

And after that, we need to learn that capitalism does not only “not necessarily bring democracy”, but that capitalism is fundamentally incompatible with and limits realization of democracy (but less so than, say, feudalism); the transition from relatively pure capitalism to the modern mixed economy in the developed West was important in continuing the advance of meaningful democracy, but the significant remaining capitalist elements are still in tension with democracy.

(Which, while it is problematic in many places isn’t necessarily all bad; unrestrained democracy isn’t a universal good, though the places capitalism is in tension with it aren't even approximately 1:1 with the problem areas of democracy.)

Re: Saudi Operatives Who Killed Khashoggi Received Paramilitary Training in U.S.

#130

Post by SkyMarshal »

KMag wrote: post #72
SkyMarshal wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, many US citizens hate it too. It's stupid both to privatize the military, and to provide military training to repressive authoritarian regimes. America and our democratic allies spent half a century fighting totalitarianism, only to turn around and treat the post-Cold War "peace dividend" as carte-blance to sell out everything we had just finished fighting for. Now authoritarianism is…

> Now authoritarianism is on the rise again as a result. Perhaps this is an indirect result of the US providing military support to totalitarian regimes, but I don't see how it accounts for a rise in totalitarian/authoritarian tendencies in Russia, China, and other countries that don't receive such aid. Nationalism and authoritarianism/totalitarianism tend to have more support when economic and other factors make peo…

>Russia, China, and other countries that don't receive such aid.

Russia and China received immense amounts of US aid.

After the USSR fell, the US was concerned about their nukes proliferating, and gave billions in foreign aid, financial/credit support, and technical assistance to Russia to help them rebuild their economy and maintain nuclear security.

For China, we opened our markets and brought them into the WTO, which massively enriched and empowered their economy and government, and without which they would not have developed nearly as quickly.

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