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DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

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Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#121
post #85
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An obstruction of justice charge, probably. Here's a pretty decent page about the charge: http://www.federalcriminallawyer.us/2011/01/12/federal-law-o... tl;dr: "18 USC 1503 is a felony offense for which the sentence can be 10 years imprisonment."

obstruction of justice or contempt? If it's contempt they can only hold you for so long.

Not really.

Craig Price is a notorious serial killer from my hometown. They caught him when he was 15 and the law only provided that they could hold him till age 21. Sometime after the law changed to patch this hole, he was ordered the see a psychiatrist. Upon his refusal, he was held in felony contempt of court and sentenced to 10 years.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#122
post #100
post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is, the court can compel you to open the safe. You don't have to reveal the combination but you do have to open it (or face contempt charges). This is pretty much the same thing they are demanding from her - we don't want your password, we want access to your hard drive.

However, in the case of a safe there exist other reasonable methods to access its content such as a safe cracker or breaking open the door. As I stated in my comment above, in the case of properly encrypted data where exactly one person possesses the key this is not the same.

Technically it's not the same thing. Whether or not it is legally different is an entirely different matter - one that has not yet been resolved.

If the court decides that encryption is like a safe then, regardless of how impossible it is to open the safe without a key, the court can coerce you into decrypting your HD.

However, if the court decides that encryption is like a secret language that only you can translate (a more accurate representation of encryption, in my opinion) then they will likely rule that they cannot coerce you into decrypting the data.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OMG. With that much knowledge and creativity clearly you must be a terrorist. Or someone who grew up way back when the official US government policy was that kids should learn hands-on Science and Math. In any case, you do something like that today you will frighten the living daylights out of enough technically-illiterate-but-powerful people that you will not get out of jail for a long long time, regardless of wheth…

Put it together correctly, and there will be no visible pyrotechnics. Just a USB stick which mysteriously fails to mount. AFAIK, most police agencies will not attempt chip-level data forensics, and perhaps no one will take the trouble to pry the stick open. Know that any serious electronics tinkerer could come up with many tricks far more clever than this one. And once again, one ought to compare the sentence for evi…

I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick without releasing some heat, light, noise, and/or smoke. The people handling your evidence are pretty sharp.

Once they notice anything funny, your "device" will be sent off to their bomb lab. They will have first-rate capabilities and, given the infrequency of actual bombs in the US, they'll probably have plenty of interested experts on hand.

There's a good chance that guy writing the report advising the judge of what you've done earned most of his hands-on experience with IEDs in Iraq.

I know you're not intending anything malicious, I'm just trying to explain to you the seriousness of what you're proposing.

I am a serious electronics tinkerer though and I find the idea of a secure-wipe facility interesting. You really want to look for ways to do it that don't set off any red flags.

Here's a good standard: If you wanted to productize such a device would you be able to get Underwriters' Laboratories to (UL) to safety certify it for use in the home?

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Put it together correctly, and there will be no visible pyrotechnics. Just a USB stick which mysteriously fails to mount. AFAIK, most police agencies will not attempt chip-level data forensics, and perhaps no one will take the trouble to pry the stick open. Know that any serious electronics tinkerer could come up with many tricks far more clever than this one. And once again, one ought to compare the sentence for evi…

I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick without releasing some heat, light, noise, and/or smoke. The people handling your evidence are pretty sharp. Once they notice anything funny, your "device" will be sent off to their bomb lab. They will have first-rate capabilities and, given the infrequency of actual bombs in the US, they'll probably have plenty of interested ex…

> I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick

It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs. The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment.

Plus, if you need more room, you can mimic an external USB hard drive rather than a keychain drive.

> I'm just trying to explain to you the seriousness of what you're proposing

It is true that if your handiwork produces smoke, flame, noise, etc. I do not envy your fate. If it happens during arrest, the police might even shoot you. But if, on the other hand, nothing suspicious is seen when your equipment is seized, and weeks later detectives discover a few grams of molten slag where an EEPROM chip should be, I doubt you will be tried for having set off an illicit bomb.

You will still go to jail. A reason will be found to put you there - it isn't hard. "Give me six lines written by the most honest man..."

Perhaps it only makes sense to rehearse and plan for this data-destruction scenario if you possess secrets that remain important apart from any criminal case against you.

> If you wanted to productize such a device would you be able to get Underwriters' Laboratories to (UL) to safety certify it for use in the home?

This is very much the wrong question to ask.

Something like this can never become a consumer product. The government would never permit it to be openly sold, regardless of any safety considerations.

If you view law enforcement officials as your enemy, using unmodified off-the-shelf equipment, regardless of its rarity and expense, is simply stupid. Back doors are a near-certainty. And the only way I know of to securely and unambiguously wipe large amounts of data on short notice is combustion.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick without releasing some heat, light, noise, and/or smoke. The people handling your evidence are pretty sharp. Once they notice anything funny, your "device" will be sent off to their bomb lab. They will have first-rate capabilities and, given the infrequency of actual bombs in the US, they'll probably have plenty of interested ex…

> I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs. The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment. Plus, if you need more room, you can mimic an external USB hard dr…

It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs.

Yes I know it is. I just don't think you are going to homebrew it out of model rocket igniters and magnesium ribbon.

The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment.

And they're not going to jail for releasing smoke in a federal crime lab.

If you view law enforcement officials as your enemy, using unmodified off-the-shelf equipment, regardless of its rarity and expense, is simply stupid.

The great majority of the off-the-shelf equipment is not even designed or made in the US. It's used by the US govt as much as anybody else.

Back doors are a near-certainty.

Really? Name three hidden back doors from the US government. I can only think of one or two, making them pretty rare.

Sometimes back doors are found, so it's not that nobody's looking: http://www.nextgov.com/nextgov/ng_20110707_5612.php

And the only way I know of to securely and unambiguously wipe large amounts of data on short notice is combustion.

Which is why I don't think you're going to do anything except dig yourself deeper.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think you can confine the energy you're talking about in the space of a USB stick It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs. The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment. Plus, if you need more room, you can mimic an external USB hard dr…

It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs. Yes I know it is. I just don't think you are going to homebrew it out of model rocket igniters and magnesium ribbon. The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment. And they're not going to jail for releasi…

> And they're not going to jail for releasing smoke in a federal crime lab.

No, they merely stand to lose wars.

How long should a soldier expect to live if the enemy catches him in the middle of destroying encryption keys and understands right away that it is what he is doing?

> Name three hidden back doors from the US government. I can only think of one or two, making them pretty rare.

Are you serious?

Who are you trying to fool? This is an insult to the intelligence of every reader of this site.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is very much possible to incinerate a chip die within a compact, hermetically-sealed container without releasing smoke or other tell-tale signs. Yes I know it is. I just don't think you are going to homebrew it out of model rocket igniters and magnesium ribbon. The US and other wealthy nations' armies use self-contained modules like this in their encrypted radio equipment. And they're not going to jail for releasi…

> And they're not going to jail for releasing smoke in a federal crime lab. No, they merely stand to lose wars. How long should a soldier expect to live if the enemy catches him in the middle of destroying encryption keys and understands right away that it is what he is doing? > Name three hidden back doors from the US government. I can only think of one or two, making them pretty rare. Are you serious? Who are you t…

How long should a soldier expect to live if the enemy catches him in the middle of destroying encryption keys and understands right away that it is what he is doing?

Cryptosystems are designed to protect military secrets, not an individual soldier in such a highly specific circumstance. It's not unheard of to have a "duress code" or other silent wipe functionality, but I doubt hiding the keypress effects from a local observer is a primary concern of infantry soldier gear.

The idea is that they would wipe the keys before they are captured. If they are captured in the act of wiping the keys that would be following standard orders. The radio operator would be worth more alive than dead, but he'd still better put his hands up when there's a gun in his face.

Are you serious? Who are you trying to fool? This is an insult to the intelligence of every reader of this site.

I'll take that as a 'no' then.

This back-and-forth is kind of frowned upon on this site. My email is in my profile if you'd like to continue the discussion.

Re: DOJ: We can force you to decrypt that laptop

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the information. They have your hard drive. You have a key, or they can brute force the information out with decryption software. This is not a Fifth Amendment case. They don't want or care about the password itself. They can't use the information you provide (the password) to incriminate you, no matter what the password is.

>You have a key, or they can brute force the information out with decryption software. This is not a Fifth Amendment case. They don't want or care about the password itself. They can't use the information you provide (the password) to incriminate you, no matter what the password is. You have the coordinates of the dead body, or they can dig and scan each square foot of the continent. This is not a Fifth Amendment cas…

If you killed someone, I want them to win the case against you.
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