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A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

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Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as someone who knows farmers- they do, in fact, consider going into the silo a dangerous task, because everyone knows some family that had someone die because of it. They do it anyway, because it needs to get done, but they are quite aware of the risk. Everything on a farm has to earn its keep in terms of ROI, and so will this robot. It may or may not be cost effective, and we'll see. But please don't downpl…

The entire idea that "x workers don't care about safety" is just dumb. Yes some individuals care less than they should. But every job has some people who are smart enough to value their own safety. And those people will seriously consider any device the significantly increases safety.

Humans (not any specific type of worker) are bad about risk versus convenience trade offs. They really like dangerous shortcuts as an example. Like, people who are on the clock, and they see there's a safe route to the work site, but if you cut down this steep embankment it's slightly quicker, although you might fall to your death... Humans will take that shortcut. Even though they're on the clock! They are risking death to save somebody else money, where is the sense in that? But that's not why they're doing it, they're doing it because it seems convenient. So we have to arrange things to make unsafe practices also inconvenient and then humans stop doing them. Put a fence along that steep drop, now you'd have to climb a fence and it's no longer a shortcut, so they use the safe route.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#122

I'm kind of fascinated by how many comments in here are of the "Gee, why use something so complicated? Why not just tie on a rope if you go in the silo?" variety. The inability to imagine that people who aren't tech bros can and actually do sensible things to address problems they encounter--and that some of their problems might still be harder to solve than coding a signup form--is impressive.

1. Not many comments are like that. 2. Many (most?) users here do more complex programming work than just signup forms. 3. Not everyone has the privilege of being familiar with both ag and programming. Plus, there are a lot of young users here. Today, a few people are learning more about silo safety. What’s impressive about that?

I think your exemplifying my point with your third objection is impressive. You're not even recognizing a general principle, but instead responding hey, not everyone knows agriculture can be dangerous or complicated!.

That's basically the pure form of what I'm talking about--the beliefs about many programmers that 1) they are smart, 2) their work is uniquely difficult among all other work, 3) any other work is obvious and simple, and working from those beliefs, 4) that if other people have problems with their work, they must just be too stupid to do the first few things that pop into programmers' heads.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Not many comments are like that. 2. Many (most?) users here do more complex programming work than just signup forms. 3. Not everyone has the privilege of being familiar with both ag and programming. Plus, there are a lot of young users here. Today, a few people are learning more about silo safety. What’s impressive about that?

I think your exemplifying my point with your third objection is impressive. You're not even recognizing a general principle, but instead responding hey, not everyone knows agriculture can be dangerous or complicated! . That's basically the pure form of what I'm talking about--the beliefs about many programmers that 1) they are smart, 2) their work is uniquely difficult among all other work, 3) any other work is obvio…

I am disagreeing with the general principle. Sorry, I meant to make that clear. I recognize what you’re saying but it’s wrong. I also objected to the dismissal of valid domain expertise in those who perhaps are too specialized in their knowledge.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your exemplifying my point with your third objection is impressive. You're not even recognizing a general principle, but instead responding hey, not everyone knows agriculture can be dangerous or complicated! . That's basically the pure form of what I'm talking about--the beliefs about many programmers that 1) they are smart, 2) their work is uniquely difficult among all other work, 3) any other work is obvio…

I am disagreeing with the general principle. Sorry, I meant to make that clear. I recognize what you’re saying but it’s wrong. I also objected to the dismissal of valid domain expertise in those who perhaps are too specialized in their knowledge.

There is no amount of domain expertise that justifies thinking other domains require no expertise.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire idea that "x workers don't care about safety" is just dumb. Yes some individuals care less than they should. But every job has some people who are smart enough to value their own safety. And those people will seriously consider any device the significantly increases safety.

Humans (not any specific type of worker) are bad about risk versus convenience trade offs. They really like dangerous shortcuts as an example. Like, people who are on the clock, and they see there's a safe route to the work site, but if you cut down this steep embankment it's slightly quicker, although you might fall to your death... Humans will take that shortcut. Even though they're on the clock! They are risking d…

>Humans (not any specific type of worker) are bad about risk versus convenience trade offs.

This is just a fancy way of calling people stupid because they don't do what you want.

Literally every subject you can think of is inundated with people complaining that the common man doesn't care enough or isn't doing it right.

"nice boat you've got there"

-no financial planner ever

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Humans (not any specific type of worker) are bad about risk versus convenience trade offs. They really like dangerous shortcuts as an example. Like, people who are on the clock, and they see there's a safe route to the work site, but if you cut down this steep embankment it's slightly quicker, although you might fall to your death... Humans will take that shortcut. Even though they're on the clock! They are risking d…

>Humans (not any specific type of worker) are bad about risk versus convenience trade offs. This is just a fancy way of calling people stupid because they don't do what you want. Literally every subject you can think of is inundated with people complaining that the common man doesn't care enough or isn't doing it right. "nice boat you've got there" -no financial planner ever

> This is just a fancy way of calling people stupid because they don't do what you want.

Not people, humans, I'm sure some non-humans can get this right.

And it's not that they don't do what I want, they don't do what they want.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#127
post #103
post #40

About 30 people a year are entrapped in grain bins. About half die. Generally, someone goes inside a grain bin only because something has gone wrong. Which is when it's most dangerous. [1] https://agfax.com/2019/02/18/grain-bins-sudden-death-4-ways-...

This sounds like typical heavy industry stuff, but I guess a lot of the normal practices of heavy industry aren't as common in the ag sector.

Right. In industry, you'd need a confined space permit, lockout/tagout of any related machinery, a fall protection rig, and an outside watcher to go inside a grain silo. Standard industrial safety.

Farms with 10 employees or less are mostly exempt from OSHA regulations, by an act of Congress demanded by the agriculture industry.

[1] https://www.osha.gov/grain-handling

[2] https://www.agriculture.com/news/business/osha-clarifies-sma...

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#128

Once we can make bread with nothing but sunlight and robots humanity will be so much closer to being free from work.

If bread was all I needed, I'd already be able to meet my needs with 30 minutes of work a week.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am disagreeing with the general principle. Sorry, I meant to make that clear. I recognize what you’re saying but it’s wrong. I also objected to the dismissal of valid domain expertise in those who perhaps are too specialized in their knowledge.

There is no amount of domain expertise that justifies thinking other domains require no expertise.

Effectively no one here thinks that. Asking a question is not the same as thinking that.

Re: A robot to replace the need for farmers to go inside the grain bin

#130
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Instead of using the word "idiot", I think it's probably better to describe people who refused to give up small scale farming over the course of the 20th century as...very stubborn, used to doing everything themselves to save money and ignoring risks (to themselves and family) that a big employer can't possibly get away with today. If you've ever read "Farmer Boy" about Almanzo Wilder, there's a bit where his father…

"Instead of using the word "idiot", I think it's probably better to describe people ..." Please re-read - I said: "Most of the people I know who handle tasks like this are not idiots." I was disputing my parents assertion that "... (things like this are) not a dangerous task to them." I think my parent is incorrect.

It's very common for (family) farmers to die in accidents like the article hints at. Not specifically related to grain bins, but in general due to working with hazardous equipment and chemicals and having no regard for labor and safety laws.

So, even if you didn't mean to, I think you called a lot of people idiots.

I was just trying to reframe it as, people who work for themselves rather than a corporation tend to take a lot more risk and settle for a lot less pay.

So if you know people like that, you'd know about the consequent misfortunes.

I'm not trying to be critical, really, what it comes down to is that if "most of the people [you] know" wouldn't take the risks that I associate with farmers, then it makes me wonder what sort of people they are. What context you are coming from.

My grandfather was a farmer. I don't know the details, but he died after a mishap cleaning something with gasoline. Not immediately. I read a news item once where a farmer was overcome by something with toxic fumes, and the whole family died in succession, each one going in to rescue the other. There was another about someone who got their arms ripped off while working alone and managed to get help.

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