Why we should end the data economy • Hacker News Board

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#121

Post by shkkmo » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:07 PM UTC

slver wrote: post #110

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

From reading this list, I can deduce OP just made up most of them, because over half of them contains details that are total BS. Also I happen to think we'd be a better society if we all knew everything about each other. Instead of discouraging companies from analyzing us, encourage them to publish everything all the time. Let governments join in on the fun. Everyone should be tracking an analyzing everyone else. Sol…

The worst thing about the information economy of today is absolutely the inequality of access. We would be better off if everything that is collected was public.

I don't think that means we don't need privacy. It absolutely has value.

The problem is when privacy is only available to the rich and powerful, while the details about the rest of us are hoarded and used by the very same powerful people who pay such a premium for their privacy.

If we allow the collection of information, that information should absolutely be public, but that doesn't mean we should allow everything to be collected.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#122

Post by geenew » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

Swizec wrote: post #87

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

> your life expectancy based on how fast you walk, as measured by your phone Shit I would love to know this for myself! Is there a service or app that can crunch the numbers and tell me?

I thought that was interesting too. Looks like the research on it came out 10 years ago. A couple of links from some quick searching. The second link has some charts and graphs, though it limits its estimates to 65+ age groups.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/walking-speed-sur...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/fullarticle/644554

Edit: I'd add that you likely don't need any tracker to get a rough estimate.

If you walk faster than people around you who are roughly the same age, then you'll likely outlive them.

That may be a reason to take it slow and smell the roses, since you have more time :)

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#123

Post by matz1 » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

No, I am okay for them to be able to know.

Them knowing is not the problem. Them using it to harm me is the problem. These are different thing, latter is a problem, former is not.

Let pick this one example :

'your restaurant visits and shopping habits'

Just them knowing is not problem, in fact them knowing can also benefit me: e.g when they want to give me gift.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#124

Post by jerry1979 » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

Barraketh wrote: post #42

Honestly, I'm kind of sick of how bad a rap advertising gets. Now sure, companies knowing a lot about your personal life is creepy on an intuitive level, but the fact of the matter is that cookie tracking data has NEVER been associated with any leak or data breach that resulted in personal harm. The thing people SHOULD be worried about is stuff like the Experian leak, where credit companies collect your non-anonymize…

I see a couple some framing issues your comment. For example, the comment links (A) cookie tracking data with (B) people giving advertising a bad wrap. But, I think that people give advertising a bad rap for many reasons beyond simply cookie tracking. Given that, I worry that the idea "cookie tracking never led to harm" distracts me from the larger issue of generalized corporate and governmental data surveillance, especially considering that it seems like personal data breaches usually deal subtle harm to people.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#125

Post by amelius » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #80

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

Yes, great list. But salary and bank balance should probably be added.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#126

Post by jfengel » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

Judgmentality wrote: post #64

bpodgursky wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Burn it all down" as a solution — inevitably applied to cultures, systems or industries viewed from the outside — is also a plague of laziness.

I've never heard "hey this isn't working, let's start over from scratch!" be called laziness before.

I'm surprised you haven't heard it before. "As a matter of cosmic history, it has always been easier to destroy than to create," as one wise man put it.

"Burn it all down" is easy to say. You can apply it to anything, with no further thought. It's precisely what I'd call "lazy".

To avoid being lazy, you'd have to couple it with exactly what you intend to build from scratch, and ideally how you'd go about it. That's a ton of work, not just because you have to have a concrete idea, but because you have something that people can point out the flaws of. Many of whom will say, "It's terrible, burn it down."

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#127

Post by nINYqGQadl » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

SavantIdiot wrote: post #80

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

This is a great list. SO many times people have said to me, "Let them track me, I've got nothing to hide." And you hit them with a few things off this list and they immediately change their mind. There should be a tinurl for website I can send people to that shows a simple list of all the ways personal information can be used.

I think this list makes a case for better sharing/access controls but I can see applications for most of the things listed here. I might just want the insights for myself but not want to share it with anyone or my data being sold without my consent e.g. monitor and improve my sleeping habits, monitor my expenditure by tracking my restaurant and shopping habits, my health data and/or insights into it. Maybe not your spouse but some parents might want to keep track of what their kids do online. I know people who want to have the ability to find/track the location of family members etc.

I suppose calls for better regulation, purpose oriented data collection and stricter enforcement and penalties but by no means does simply don't track/collect data is an answer where there are actual practical applications.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#128

Post by Judgmentality » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #118

Judgmentality wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard "hey this isn't working, let's start over from scratch!" be called laziness before.

It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down. It's like the US tax code... it is insanely complicated and in a lot of ways doesn't serve the public well (because rich folks can use the complexity of it to escape taxation), so it's easy and popular to say let's just get rid of it and start with a new, simple tax code. The problem is it got to be the way it is for a rea…

> It's lazy when it doesn't come with a proposal to replace the stuff that you want to burn down.

And what do we want to replace targeted ads, surreptitious tracking, and a system that exploits its users for money while not being held accountable to its users with?

I'd say we're better off with nothing. So yes, in this instance, burn it all down actually is a solution.

I'm aware I'm ignoring the externalities, I'm aware it's complicated, and I'm aware what I'm proposing actually is lazy. I'm aware a bunch of people will lose their jobs (mostly in tech though so I really don't feel bad, having spent most of life in that industry). I'm saying in this instance it doesn't matter. We're still better off burning it all down.

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#129

Post by ivan888 » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:08 PM UTC

We need something like the Nutrition Facts label for digital consent: government mandated, consistent format, easy to scan. Even better if it was an interactive form to allow you to selectively consent to specific options

Re: Why we should end the data economy

#130

Post by swiley » Fri, Jun 04, 2021, 6:09 PM UTC

cs702 wrote: post #54

No one sane would ever want their relatives, friends, work colleagues, and neighbors to be able to know (quoting from the OP): > who you sleep with because both you and the person you share your bed with keep your phones nearby > whether you sleep soundly at night or whether your troubles are keeping you up > whether you pick up your phone in the middle of the night and search for things like "loan repayment" > your…

>your IQ based on the pages you "like" on Facebook and the friends you have

That's got to be extremely noisy, does anyone have any links about this?