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Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

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Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#121

Post by tiddchristopher »

xsmasher wrote: post #103
jasonlotito wrote: post #81

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of an internship about learning, not about producing? If your producing for the company something they are selling (or creating net value), don't you have to get paid? I mean, people here are talking about actually working on projects the company is earning money for. That's not an internship. Am I clueless, or are other people just ignorant?

Are you making a moral argument, or a legal one? If legal, what country? The "idea of an internship" is experience and networking if you're the intern, recruiting if you're a smart company, and free/cheap labor if you're a dumb company.

It's a matter of legality in the United States.

"Among those criteria are that the internship should be similar to the training given in a vocational school or academic institution, that the intern does not displace regular paid workers and that the employer 'derives no immediate advantage' from the intern’s activities [. . .]" https://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/03/business/03intern.html

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#122

Post by studiofellow »

Passing judgment on all unpaid internships in all situations is unreasonable. When deciding whether to accept an unpaid internship, common sense is the best guide.

I've seen both unpaid and paid interns treated poorly. I've also seen both thrive. I personally had 2 paid internships before I graduated college. One was demeaning and the other an incredible learning experience.

If an unpaid opportunity offers a lot and you can afford to take it, why not? How is this different than contributing to open source or doing pro bono for charities?

However, if a company doesn't want to pay, I'd suggest more caution. Ask lots of questions, and if you end up just getting people coffee, quit. Interns are working professionals just like anyone else and deserve equal respect.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#123

Post by zppx »

sans-serif wrote: post #99
Klinky wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. Keep in mind how many products are imported from third world countries that have poor labor standards & low wages. The current US lifestyle is heavily subsidized by this cheap labor. Additionally here in the US there is often abuse with illegal immigrants who make well below minim…

Intriguingly enough, without outsourced jobs from first-world countries, economic development in the third world would be even slower and labor standards poorer due to the lack of employer competition.

This however is not applicable to every developing country, here in South America the majority of foreign companies are here because of the local market potential and not generally to produce here and send to another place in the globe, this happens mainly because of the existence of China and India that are more cost effective for this type of market than industries in South America.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#124

Post by byronronron »

WillyF wrote: post #37

I didn't realize that the unpaid internship situation is as bad in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. My startup helps college students find entry level jobs and internships, so I'm constantly aware of what the latest trends are. One trend that really scares me is that there are some "career experts" whom I interact with regularly who offer their own unpaid virtual internships (I've seen lots of other internships like…

What would it take for schools to enforce fair labor standards on behalf of their students?

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#125

Post by zeemonkee »

jcromartie wrote: post #108
zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom. The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude. In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege. Moreover - a point not…

I think there's even more to the parallel: many unpaid interns are kids coming from expensive schools with high levels of student debt.

There's something going on here. I don't know about the US, but in the UK social mobility is actually worse than in the 1950s:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1555697/UK-one-of-wor...

So, you have a pattern where:

- More people are going into higher education

- We are in the middle of a deep recession

- As a consequence of these factors, there is less public money per student, so students have to pay more

- As another consequence, a degree is worth less than in previous decades

- Employers see a college/university degree as a requirement, even for jobs that don't really need them

- Unpaid internships are therefore seen as a differentiating factor when hiring graduates

So, in order to climb that greasy pole, you need a) the money to get a degree and b) the money to work unpaid while you gain experience. In the past, you had the option of starting work as a teenager and working your way up, or being one of the few to go to university and having your costs paid, with a good chance of a higher paid job at the end of it.

In this brave new world, these doors have been firmly closed to kids from poor families. Of course it benefits the rich kids and I wonder, half-jokingly, if this isn't an intended consequence of the richer Boomers ensuring an easier ride for their progeny without competition from the hoi polloi. In any case, I fear for the future of a country where advancement depends on connections and family money rather than ability.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#127

Post by ryanklee »

Klinky wrote: post #91
orangecat wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without a minimum wage, the number of consumers for any good beyond basic food, clothing and shelter products would be drastically cut. Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. There are massive lobbying efforts by big business every time the minimum wage issue comes up for debate True, for example WalMart lobbies in fav…

Unlikely. Very few employees in the US make exactly the minimum wage, which is why it's true that minor increases have close to no effect. Keep in mind how many products are imported from third world countries that have poor labor standards & low wages. The current US lifestyle is heavily subsidized by this cheap labor. Additionally here in the US there is often abuse with illegal immigrants who make well below minim…

4.9% of US pop. working at or below minimum wage is hardly insignificant.

http://www.bls.gov/cps/minwage2009.htm

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#128

Post by pbhjpbhj »

argv_empty wrote: post #94
cturner wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a temptation in politics to see patterns and then fit language to it that kind of fits. It's important not to do this, because it ruins the sense of scale. For example, when someone describes a politician they don't like as a "fascist" it's disrespectful to the memory of people who are squashed under tanks and who are taken in the night by state agents, raped and murdered. Along these lines, it doesn't fit to…

It traps people with low skills out of work What exactly are these skills they lack that are needed in order to get work? Putting together a sandwich? Stacking boxes of food on a shelf? Putting dishes on a table and collecting them after they've been used?

There appears to be quite a lot of people that lack the basic skill needed to work: follow simple instructions.

For example, in the streets in the UK we have signs saying things to the effect "don't litter", "don't let your dog crap here", etc., and there appear to be lots of folk that can't even get that right.

Anecdote: my elderly aunties friend is about 50 and mentally disabled; her speech is very difficult to understand and she has problems with anything beyond simple concepts. Her memory doesn't appear to work well. Until recently (her mother died and she's no longer capable of doing the work) she worked in a department store cafe clearing tables and doing some cleaning - she did the work set as long as it was clearly communicated and she did it with a smile. I'd guess that any member of the population that can stand and dress themselves could have done that job.

It's not much of a life clearing tables.

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#129

Post by smokeyj »

zeemonkee wrote: post #14

Unpaid internships are essentially a form of serfdom. The serf system in Russia IIRC started with free peasants who sold themselves into slavery to the landowner when they fell into debt - unlike African slaves in the US, who were essentially kidnapped into servitude. In the same vein people are taking up voluntary servitude in order to get a paid job - sometimes even paying for the privilege. Moreover - a point not…

If an internship is serfdom then college must be slavery.

Intern: skills + experience = $0

College: no skills + no experience = student loan

Re: Calling Bullshit on Unpaid Interships

#130

Post by jasonlotito »

tkahn6 wrote: post #113
jasonlotito wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But interns aren't producing anything (if they are, it's not an internship). The idea is they are learning. If they are producing things the company then uses to sell, they should get paid. But I've seen interns that literally follow around, take notes, ask questions. So, why should someone be paid for not contributing to the bottom line?

> But interns aren't producing anything (if they are, it's not an internship). That seems like a false dichotomy. I'm at an internship right now getting paid quite well and I'm contributing to their bottom line (albeit indirectly since I am working on internal tools). I'm also learning quite a lot.

Sorry, I should have been explicit (though, I feel I was fairly obvious).

unpaid interships aren't producing anything. If you are getting paid, then it's not really relevant to the discussion of "unpaid internships."

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