FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars • Hacker News Board

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#121

Post by NeutronStar » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

dubcanada wrote: post #28

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

If you are going to provide any kind free or discounted health care, the best way to make that cheaper is to restrict people from doing damaging things. So ya healthcare.

Except a smoker cost way less over the course of its like than someone living to be 90 years old. It costs way more to keep old people alive.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#122

Post by toomuchtodo » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #102

toomuchtodo wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have seen too many addicts slowly kill themselves (tobacco, opioids, cocaine) to be able to morally maintain this position. It’s easy to say when you assume everyone is of sound mind and capable of self regulation, which is not the case. People have demons and mental health challenges that make them vulnerable. You’d need a model like Portugal, where they fund treatment programs and social services along side liber…

But of how unsound a mind must someone be before we say "I know better than you?" There are 10s of thousands of addicts on the street that the government does not feel it has the grounds to institutionalize. So we trust them to make every decision except which psychoactive chemicals that aren't alcohol they can consume?

We don’t trust them, we gave up on them.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#123

Post by __blockcipher__ » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

judge2020 wrote: post #65

jakeva wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it's not. Smoking isn't contagious.

https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/fact_sheets/seco... > Since the 1964 Surgeon General’s Report, 2.5 million adults who were nonsmokers died because they breathed secondhand smoke.

Honestly the secondhand smoke research is very sketchy. Actually anything that becomes a public health issue ends up getting distorted by the public health establishment. Case in point: flu vaccines. They’re so ineffective that no rational person would ever waste time taking them, yet many of us do: https://www.cochrane.org/CD001269/ARI_vaccines-prevent-influ... (note: the “no rational person” is slight hyperbole)

The better argument is that the actual social behavior of smoking is contagious, as any social behavior is.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#124

Post by JumpCrisscross » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:27 PM UTC

nprz wrote: post #72

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Some how the democratic party is in favor of prohibiting the use of menthol cigarettes, but they're also in favor of legalizing marijuana? Very weird.

> in favor of prohibiting the use of menthol cigarettes, but they're also in favor of legalizing marijuana

Cigarettes are sold at every convenience store in flashy packaging. They are made by deep-pocketed multinationals with generations of lobbying experience.

Legal marijuana, on the other hand, is sold with minimal advertising in licensed, purpose-built stores. If you gave tobacco companies a choice between banning menthol and forcing the sale of cigarettes in tobacco stores only, I think I know which one they'd pick.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#125

Post by aidenn0 » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #122

aidenn0 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But of how unsound a mind must someone be before we say "I know better than you?" There are 10s of thousands of addicts on the street that the government does not feel it has the grounds to institutionalize. So we trust them to make every decision except which psychoactive chemicals that aren't alcohol they can consume?

We don’t trust them, we gave up on them.

fair enough

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#126

Post by BitwiseFool » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #32

At what point do we say that we've just given up on the concept of freedom? For what behaviors will we say: "That's a really bad idea, but go ahead and suffer the consequences if you want to do it"? It seems we are moving in the direction of zero consequences first. By the time you have medical bills from smoking too much, you're on medicare, so it's not coming out of your children's inheritance. And then after the c…

Oddly enough smoking actually saves the State money in the long run. Smoking citizens don't live as long and thus save money on medical care and entitlement payments.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#127

Post by jolux » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

__blockcipher__ wrote: post #34

awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

That’s the problem with socialized medicine. Once you institute it now your body belongs to the state. You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it. Prohibition is wrong. It’s not just unethical but impractical. And congrats, now cops aren’t just going to claim they smell weed in my car, they’re going to claim they smell menthol too. — Also your “waive your right…

>You’re not allowed to put something deemed bad in your body because the “people” have to pay for it.

Has any country with socialized medicine actually banned tobacco fully? Genuinely curious.

If they haven't then I don't understand why regulation isn't continuous with the current regime, where smokers have to pay a lot more for health insurance. These problems do not go away in a free market system, insurance companies will always try to incentivize you to take on less risk.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#128

Post by km3r » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

awillen wrote: post #22

veilrap wrote: post #8

This just feels like a continuation of the failed war on drugs... I don't smoke, but I have no problem with allowing people to do so in private spaces. Why do we insist on micromanaging peoples lives?

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

From what Ive seen, smokers are cheaper on Medi-* because they, on average die, so much younger.

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#129

Post by NilsIRL » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

kube-system wrote: post #26

awillen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because our tax dollars pay for Medicare/Medicaid, so for those people who don't have private insurance, they're saddling society with the costs of their choices. In general I lean libertarian and agree that banning things isn't great, but if you want to make your own choices, you have to bear the costs of those choices. If you want to waive your right to government funded healthcare, then you ought to be able to mak…

Just tax cigarettes to the equivalent or greater than the amount of dollars of burden they place on the healthcare system. Make smokers pay for their own choices. Externalized costs are the root of many seemingly insurmountable societal problems, and most can be fixed by simply accounting for the costs appropriately.

In France, taxation accounts for 80% of a cigarette pack. [0]

Yet tobacco costs 120 billion euros a year for only 16 billion in revenue (to the government). [1]

It is almost infeasible to tax cigarette to the equivalent of their burden on the health care system.

[0]: https://www.boursorama.com/patrimoine/actualites/les-taxes-s...

[1]: https://www.reseau-hopital-ght.fr/actualites/patients/campag...

Re: FDA Moves to Ban All Menthol Cigarettes and Flavored Cigars

#130

Post by ajkjk » Thu, Apr 29, 2021, 9:28 PM UTC

chmod600 wrote: post #32

At what point do we say that we've just given up on the concept of freedom? For what behaviors will we say: "That's a really bad idea, but go ahead and suffer the consequences if you want to do it"? It seems we are moving in the direction of zero consequences first. By the time you have medical bills from smoking too much, you're on medicare, so it's not coming out of your children's inheritance. And then after the c…

Seems like a really oversimplified idea of what freedom is. It's not a binary where you're free or you aren't. You're never _completely_ free, or you wouldn't be able to pulled over by cops, forced to file taxes, or whatever, anyway.

Like, yeah, you could stick to the "absolute freedom all the time" principle and do nothing to make people healthier, but if you had just done it anyway life would be better for everyone involved. And you're stuck with your rigid adherence to principles saying "well at least we were free" while the world is crappy compared to what it could be. Give me the slightly paternalistic government that makes its people healthier and happier every time.