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.NET for Beginners (2020)

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Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#121

Post by philliphaydon »

VadimPR wrote: post #105
philliphaydon wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been a .NET developer since 2003, I've been on Linux exclusively for the last 2 years. .NET on Linux with Jetbrains Rider, is a far better experience than Windows and Visual Studio. VSCode isn't worth looking at for .NET Development.

I jumped into .NET w/o any background while running Linux - it's not a pleasant experience when you lack the heavy Windows+VS background you've had. Perhaps Jetbrains Rider is better, but at this point you know all the ins and outs of the platforms - a beginner lack that.

The experience of picking up a new IDE, language, framework, flow, etc, is no different regardless of it being .NET or anything else. There's a learning curve.

My point is not that experience is easy or hard, just that when comparing the two side by side, the experience of being a .NET developer on linux is good, and I would argue with jetbrains rider, is better than being on Windows with Visual Studio.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#122

Post by nojito »

oblio wrote: post #120
xbar wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like you understand the story for both of them. Any reason why F# is not a valid starting point language on Mac?

Because it's a community language. Microsoft doesn't officially support it fully. So you have 20-30 or however many volunteer devs (probably fewer) working on it in their spare time. If you're just getting used to the platform, you're shooting yourself in the foot by going with niche setups. Try C# first to figure out your way around the platform and then branch out, not the other way around.

>Microsoft doesn't officially support it fully.

Nonsense all you have to do is install the dotnet sdk and run a single line in your terminal.

    dotnet new console -lang "F#" -o "project"

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#123

Post by oblio »

alexon1234 wrote: post #114

I can not agree more with this post. After being a C# developer for 5 years, I can not think of a worst language to learn that C#. The ecosystem is dead just check the latest startups from YC, how many are using C#? How many startups nowadays are using C#? Currently there are better options than C# or .NET. You want simplicity, you have Go. You can create an API server so simple and easy to understand. You want a ful…

> After being a C# developer for 5 years, I can not think of a worse language to learn that C#. The ecosystem is dead just check the latest startups from YC, how many are using C#? How many startups nowadays are using C#?

You're late to the party, and your comment is a bit funny. C# was > a startup language :-) It was always an enterprise language, meant to fight Java.

If anything, C# is moving towards startups with the introduction of .NET Core and of the cross platform IDEs (VS for MacOS, VS Code + plugins, Rider).

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#124

Post by oblio »

nojito wrote: post #122
oblio wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because it's a community language. Microsoft doesn't officially support it fully. So you have 20-30 or however many volunteer devs (probably fewer) working on it in their spare time. If you're just getting used to the platform, you're shooting yourself in the foot by going with niche setups. Try C# first to figure out your way around the platform and then branch out, not the other way around.

>Microsoft doesn't officially support it fully. Nonsense all you have to do is install the dotnet sdk and run a single line in your terminal. dotnet new console -lang "F#" -o "project"

Yeah, it's also included in VS classic, if you want to get super fancy. Does it get the same level of support as C#? Hardly. Do bugs get fixed as fast? Maybe.

I think there was a Microsoft article that summed it up nicely: there are millions of C# developers (ergo the focus), tens of thousands if not low hundreds of thousands of VB.Net developers (ergo the life support) and maybe hundreds or low thousands of F# developers (ergo the fact that Microsoft offers some integration points but expects the already small community to develop and polish the actual implementation).

It took F# several years to fully get supported on .NET Core (type providers and such). I know, because I was watching the Github issue for it for at least 2 years).

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#125

Post by Traubenfuchs »

andi999 wrote: post #90
jiggawatts wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are one or more of them about to be deprecated? All of them are. Not officially , of course, but practically speaking all of them are dead-ends. MAUI is the "new hotness", which means that it'll only become obvious that it is also a dead end in about a year and a half. I wish I was joking.

At least until last year, I think the community used mostly winforms if it is for Windows operating system. MS is not too happy about that.

Because winforms is an incredibly easy and solid technology. It's a joy to work with.

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#126

Post by young_unixer »

andi999 wrote: post #118
lbriner wrote: post #113

Definitely a frustration for those of us having done .Net for 20 years. Even the naming frustrates me. Every time they seem to create a new "one name to rule them all", it only lasts a short while until a new one comes along net framework, .net core, .net standard .net 5 and apparently now .net 6. As the OP said, the overarching problem is probably trying to be all things to all people and pretending that all of thos…

Yes. Naming is the worst. Oh, I have dotnet how do I make a webpage. Nah, you need also asp dot net. Or asp core .net, but this wont run on .net anymore but only on core .net..... headache...

Microsoft seem to have trouble naming things.

Xbox One X, Xbox One S, Xbox series X, Xbox series S.

And also: Is Outlook the same as Office365? Is Outlook the new Live? Did Hotmail turn into Live? Am I the only confused by all of this?

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#127

Post by goto11 »

manigandham wrote: post #35

.NET definitely has a messy past but someone arriving today probably has the easiest time ever getting started because so much has changed to become a single streamlined product. All these opinions are weighed down by the very history that beginners don't have. The expansive standard library, web/desktop/mobile/gaming output, Visual Studio (Code) IDEs, fantastic in-depth guides and documentation [1], dev evangelists…

> a single streamlined product.

Problem is, the past will remain with us in every book, code example or stackoverflow answer. As a beginner you need to understand the difference between .net framework and .net core because any blog post or tutorial will reference one or the other. Now people start calling it .net 5 or .net 6 instead of core, but you have to understand that this is incompatible with ".net framework" or ".net 4".

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#128

Post by kaba0 »

Traubenfuchs wrote: post #125
andi999 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least until last year, I think the community used mostly winforms if it is for Windows operating system. MS is not too happy about that.

Because winforms is an incredibly easy and solid technology. It's a joy to work with.

CPU rendering should not be a thing in 2021

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#129

Post by TecoAndJix »

keithnz wrote: post #21

I'd like to see some data around the central claim. Is C# really that hard for beginners? I watch a lot of beginners on twitch (for several years now) start with C# and almost zero idea about programming. They all seem do pretty well, whether they are learning unity, winforms, web dev. They don't even stop and wonder any of the issues discussed in the article, they simply make the project type they want in visual stu…

My undergrad Info Systems degree switched from teaching Programming I and II in C++ and Java to C# and Java recently. I think the reason was market relevance? Either way [coming from a very hacky python background] it taught me the core concepts well. I continue to enjoy C# after graduating but have not touched Java since

Re: .NET for Beginners (2020)

#130

Post by kaba0 »

BrissyCoder wrote: post #63
keithnz wrote: post #21

I'd like to see some data around the central claim. Is C# really that hard for beginners? I watch a lot of beginners on twitch (for several years now) start with C# and almost zero idea about programming. They all seem do pretty well, whether they are learning unity, winforms, web dev. They don't even stop and wonder any of the issues discussed in the article, they simply make the project type they want in visual stu…

> Is C# really that hard for beginners?. No data but from a lot of anecdotal experience I don't believe so - quite3e opposite. I've never seen beginners (interns generally) or non-C# programmers (adept at other languages) come up to speed and start meaningfully contributing to projects on any other language other than C#. With other languages (I've worked with) this just isn't true. I've never seen anyone but the mos…

For beginners, Java is pretty much C# with uppercase types, so I have a hard time believing one is easier than the other.
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