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Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

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Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#121

Post by rfoo »

delecti wrote: post #13
gruez wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where does it say bitcoin? The quote: >three recent coal mine accidents, [...] that caused 21 people to be trapped.

There are a few steps in between, but if the chain of events really is: coal mine accidents > coal shortage > power blackouts > drop in bitcoin mining, then the end result is effectively they were indeed slaving away for bitcoin.

No. I'm a native Chinese and from my understanding (read between lines and talking to local friends), the situation is:

1. Coal mine accidents.

2. Someone said "stop mining, make sure all the mine pass security check". Of course they mean coal mining.

3. Government officers confuse "mining coal" and "mining Bitcoin", decided to stop both just because they both have a "mine" word in name.

It's quite hilarious how they can be so wrong.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#122

Post by companyhen »

ilaksh wrote: post #119
kaliali wrote: post #101

Use proof of stake coins like Cardano and Polkadot They use 10000 to a million times less energy than bitcoin to process payments!

Polkadot is terrific and has a place, especially in private blockchains. Cardano is interesting but much less inspiring to me. But I still think that Ethereum 2.0 will be the public blockchain of choice down the line.

Don't forget about Kusama. Expect Chaos... ;)

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#123

Post by jabbany »

lottin wrote: post #112
jabbany wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In theory yes, but in practice it's rather infeasible to do 51% attacks IRL --- the main constraint is the people not the math. A 51% attack mainly lets you double spend, so you have to: (1) get a lot of coins and spend them on something (2) start mining a fork where that spending didn't happen (but other real transactions continue to happen) --- your hash power will now need to be dedicated to this new fork at the e…

> can be relatively easily "taken back" This assumes the existence of a legal system with coercive power, which bitcoin doesn't have. That was the point of bitcoin to begin with, in fact.

Uhh, not for the coins themselves but certainly for the goods that were exchanged with them?

I mean if you did this IRL, the party providing the goods would just report them as stolen and the traditional legal system can be used to retrieve them. Have fun arguing in court that a 51% attack somehow means you get to keep the thing. This is no different from paying for the thing and stealing the money back IRL. The only thing crypto allows you to do is to distance yourself _physically_ (i.e. you don't actually have to break in and steal money), it means f*ck all _legally_. A similar existing situation analogous for 51% attacks is "paying for something with a personal check and later having it bounce".

In fact all major breaches of crypto today involve stealing the coins themselves, which as commenters below have mentioned, cannot be done with a 51% attack---you still don't have the private keys.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#124

Post by sashimi-houdini »

2bitencryption wrote: post #14

> Significantly, the Xinjiang and Sichuan regions of China combined account for more than 50 percent of the overall Bitcoin mining hash rate I don't get it, doesn't this effectively mean China can force a 51% attack by just strongarming the pools that operate there?

Yes it does. And if/when a large enough player finds it in their interest to mount such an attack, they might very well do it. See https://www.crypto51.app/ for a (somewhat outdated) price chart.

Remember the first law of cryptocurrency though: "in case of emergency, betray your core principles."

In the event of such an attack, the rest of the system (miners, developers) may be able to simply declare the "evil" side of the fork "untrue" and hardcode the other fork as true. The fact that this is exactly opposite to Bitcoin's stated goals is no problem at all. See e.g. Ethereum's response to the "DOA Attack" as an example.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#125

Post by saltyfamiliar »

jabbany wrote: post #94
dehrmann wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're thinking too small on the impact--China doesn't need to double spend bitcoins. What they could do is cause a loss of confidence in Bitcoin overnight and collapse the price.

How is that even remotely strategically good for China......? These miners are probably making USD or some other foreign fiat at the end of the day which adds to the supply of foreign reserves without needing to use trade... And if they're siphoning power to get around currency exchange limits moving wealth abroad then a traditional crackdown to confiscate their equipment would be much more effective (you can't exact…

China stands to gain the most from bitcoin mooning at the expense of other countries' currencies. Every yuan exchanged for bitcoin siphons value out of the chinese monetary network and into the global cryptocurrency network. Ideally, if china secured a large portion of bitcoin and then ceased all bitcoin trading within their borders, they could allow other countries to foot the bill of economic instability while the net value of their assets increase.

Bitcoin is an economic weapons created by the chinese government.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#126

Post by turbinerneiter »

soperj wrote: post #82
mr_woozy wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sure if you're suddenly not counting China's hydropower as renewables suddenly.

Depending on what's flooded Hydro can actually be the dirtest power out there. There's a hydro plant in brazil that contributes 3 times the number of ghg emissions as it's equivalent coal plant.

That is due to the construction? Just wondering nif there are any hidden runtime emissions you are refering to.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#127

Post by athrowaway3z »

elefanten wrote: post #56
gruez wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you got cause and effect reversed. The correct chain of events is: coal miners slave away to produce coal, which is generally burned to produce heat. Part of that heat is used to run turbines to electric generators[1], and part of the generated electricity is used for bitcoin mining. Does this mean they're slaving away for bitcoin mining? I guess, but only partially. Saying they're slaving away for bitcoin mi…

Without the bitcoin driven demand, there would be less pressure to mine faster than feasible and fewer accidents. The pressure would still be there... but there are cost-related reasons the mining is colocated with the power generation. Seems a reasonable guess that this virtuous cycle of coal-and-crypto mining synergy resulted in some soylent externalities.

If i had to model this i wouldn't say

> Without the bitcoin driven demand, there would be less pressure to mine faster than feasible and fewer accidents.

I don't buy that demand has suddenly exceeded the operators capacity, forcing them to trades safety for production. I would assume the pressure is constant and trading safety for production is done for profit.

So in effect:

Without the bitcoin driven demand, there would be less miners leading to less accidents.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#128

Post by chii »

quickthrower2 wrote: post #107
chii wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

to what end? Undermining trust in bitcoin isn't a goal on its own - unless you're some mastache twiddling movie villain. If you're a nation state, and want to undermine the legitimacy of bitcoin, you can easily just institute laws to ban it. Much cheaper.

A nation state can’t ban it globally. A 51% attack undermines confidence globally.

some nation states can - for example, the US can easily ban it globally. They don't because it does no harm to anyone.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#129

Post by nlitened »

goblin89 wrote: post #113

I know it’s a flawed analogy, but considering the influence China has on Bitcoin, on some level buying into Bitcoin seems not unlike shorting the US dollar.

If you live in the US, your real estate is in the US, your salary is in US dollars, and your pension is in US stocks, you are already pretty deep in long US dollar. Might as well diversify your egg basket a bit, just from financial risk management perspective.

Re: Bitcoin mining hash rate drops as blackouts instituted in China

#130

Post by samus »

turbinerneiter wrote: post #126
soperj wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depending on what's flooded Hydro can actually be the dirtest power out there. There's a hydro plant in brazil that contributes 3 times the number of ghg emissions as it's equivalent coal plant.

That is due to the construction? Just wondering nif there are any hidden runtime emissions you are refering to.

The vegetation now covered by water will start to rot and release lots of methane and other goodies. Unless it is cleared away first. This is only practical with trees though.
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