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Java Is Underhyped

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Re: Java Is Underhyped

#121

Post by Nursie »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Python is generally less performant. Go has a smaller ecosystem.

IMHO, YMMV etc.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#122

Post by thrower123 »

Pretty much anything general purpose that I might want to use Java for, I can use C# instead, and I like it better.

Cross platform support used to be the trump for Java, but DotNetCore/5 works on Linux and has nearly everything ported over now.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#123

Post by boyadjian »

For me, Java can be very useful for amateur game programming, especially using IntelliJ. You have libraries like LWJGL, that are very powerful, and much others like ODE4J

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#124

Post by donatj »

nonbirithm wrote: post #110

The amount of vitriol Java receives in the game development space is rather strong. However, whenever people dismiss Java as being a bad language, I can't help but think of Minecraft. Yes, it's one of the few mainstream titles where Java has been successfully applied, but I believe Minecraft's success was specifically because it was written in Java. With no JVM, there would have been no Minecraft mods at the level of…

> For the people who say that Minecraft should have been written in C++ […] there's Bedrock Edition. Nobody I know cares about it enough to play it.

Been playing for just under ten years, everyone I know plays Bedrock these days. I built and manage a very popular tool / Minecraft community and while I don’t have actual numbers, my general sense is the majority of players run either console or mobile Minecraft - all of which are Bedrock at this point.

If you don’t care about modding or particularly complex redstone, I don’t know why you wouldn’t run Bedrock. It’s far more stable, reliable and performant. My laptops fans rarely come on in Bedrock but never shut off in Java.

In my eyes Java is the public prototype / feature target and Bedrock the actual product.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#125

Post by DrBazza »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Don't forget that Java first appeared in the late 90s and is a language of its time. That's not say that it hasn't evolved, but many of the decisions and choices were of that era.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#126

Post by BiteCode_dev »

Nursie wrote: post #121
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Python is generally less performant. Go has a smaller ecosystem. IMHO, YMMV etc.

Yes, but that's my point.

If I don't need performance, Python is ok.

If I do, I won't go Java, I will choose something that is built for performance. Python is good enough for 99% of my performances need. The last 1%, jumping to java is not a big difference, I'll use rust or go.

I won't use go for the ecosystem, but it's unique characteristics: easy concurrency, dead simple binary production. Java can't beat that. IF I need an huge ecosystem, I'll go Python.

For the need for Java, I would need this very specific sweet spot where I need just enough speed, and just a rich ecosystem enough to justify it, and nothing that is a killer feature in alternatives. And a situation where compromise over this is not possible.

It never happens to me, that's all.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#127

Post by dnautics »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

There's a lot of very reliable distributed systems written in java. But if something goes wrong, and it will, because distributed systems, you will not want to debug it. And because java is very enterprisey, distributed java developers are expensive. You're competing with faang salaries.

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#128

Post by BiteCode_dev »

DrBazza wrote: post #125
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Don't forget that Java first appeared in the late 90s and is a language of its time. That's not say that it hasn't evolved, but many of the decisions and choices were of that era.

- Java: 1995

- Python: 1991

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#129

Post by Brian_K_White »

Nursie wrote: post #121
BiteCode_dev wrote: post #119

For my use cases, Java has all the wrong compromises: - not high level enough to compete with Python/Ruby/JS/PHP, etc - not low level enough to compete with Rust/D/Nim/Zig - not specialized enough to compete with Erlang/R/Go/Julia - not opinionated enough to compete with Lisp/Haskell So why use Java ? It's good, it's fast, it's productive, it's well supported, battle tested and documented for decades with a huge pool…

Python is generally less performant. Go has a smaller ecosystem. IMHO, YMMV etc.

How did you manage to miss the entire point of the comment?

Re: Java Is Underhyped

#130

Post by sto_hristo »

thiht wrote: post #112

> Java is fun to write, productive What the hell? I don't think we have the same definition for any of these words. I know Java has changed quite a bit since Java 8 (Java 9 being the last version I used professionally before switching completely to Go), but I just can't write Java again, it's physical. When I want to try a new Java feature and think about writing the scaffolding code, my stomach actually hurts. Not t…

curl -OL

tar -xzvf

So complicated.

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