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Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

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Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#122
post #106
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As usually, in western gynocentric social order, men are evil and the problem and women are like kids: should have all privileges and carry no responsibility.

Please don't take HN threads into gender flamewar hell. This sort of generic tangent is exactly what the site guidelines ask you not to post here. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules, we'd be grateful. Edit: it looks like you've been using HN primarily for ideological battle. We ban accounts that do that, regardless of what ideology they're battlin…

okay, noted

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#123
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"what does that mean?" I couldn't come up with an answer for that This seems to fit the definition of cargo cult. You clearly had good intentions, but you can't go around saying phrases without being able to back them up. This should be familiar to you from technical situations - consider: "prefer composition over inheritance" - reasonable advice, but be prepared to explain yourself, not just parrot it.

It's contextually a lot different though. In this case, it's not that he didn't have an answer or a means to clarify, it's that, based on her initial reaction, he didn't have one he wasn't sure would dig a deeper hole. I doubt anyone out there will have a similar visceral reaction to discussing code architecture.

I suspect anyone who could clarify that remark would have known not to open with it.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#124
post #89

This is kind of the end result we're heading for, where you can only talk candidly with people who are equal or lower than you on the oppression hierarchy. The shitty part is that I'm pretty sure 99% of people are reasonable human beings but the media has to make it seem like that isn't the case so the risk equation changes. Similar to how kids used to roam around the neighborhood but now it's deemed too risky becaus…

> where you can only talk candidly with people who are equal or lower than you on the oppression hierarchy Wouldn't someone talking to someone "lower" on the "oppression hierarchy" just be what we basically have today? That sounds like "privilege," or an "imbalanced power dynamic." I think you'll only be able to talk to equals, whatever that is, and by whatever metric is en vogue for that day.

People don’t talk candidly most of the time now to those lower on the hierarchy. In many Corp environments, almost no one talks candidly to anyone - too many minefields.

You’d generally only talk candidly to those who were not just peers, but you already had a deep seated existing rapport with and trust. Friends?

Everyone else gets the politically safe story that is supposed to be told. I’ve seen it in action, and it makes me sad because it becomes fundamentally corrosive.

And if you think for some people that doesn’t include the right kind of outrage discussion or telling the right stories to the visible oppressed minority they’re mentoring so they can get the right checkbox when they hopefully get considered for SVP (or as plan B, their mentee does) - I’ve also got a bridge to sell you.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#126

It doesn't help that the benchmark for oppression gets lower every day. It used to be a concerted, systematic action that's targeted at a small group. Today, it's pretty much anything which hurts one's feelings. Here's a hot take: This is what happens when kids don't get bullied at school. They don't learn to build the necessary emotional circuitry and calluses to deal with emotional damage.

I don't know where all this "only massive suffering builds strength" stuff comes from.

I'm pretty sure this is analogous to the way you build up muscle: you don't try to squat 300 lbs, tear your hip flexors, and destroy your knees on day one. In fact, repeated injury makes you weaker.

Most social groups do have a mechanism to softly introduce low intensity conflict as play (which may help with emotional strength). Practically any group has escalating banter with escalating intimacy, for instance, permitting growth of emotional resilience in a progressive manner.

I was never bullied in school and I'm generally quite socially comfortable in many situations.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#127

It doesn't help that the benchmark for oppression gets lower every day. It used to be a concerted, systematic action that's targeted at a small group. Today, it's pretty much anything which hurts one's feelings. Here's a hot take: This is what happens when kids don't get bullied at school. They don't learn to build the necessary emotional circuitry and calluses to deal with emotional damage.

Please don't post flamebait to HN. This can't lead to anything good.

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26613220.

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#128

I'm really glad to see this here. I don't have a better word readily available than sexism for trying to talk about patterns like this but when I use the word sexism , I think people think I mean "Men are intentionally exclusionary assholes just to be assholes because they simply hate women." and that's never what I'm trying to say. I find my gender is a barrier to getting traction and my experience is that it's due…

It's more like reverse sexism here. I totally get the behaviour here. You simply don't want to be on the receiving end of potential backlash when you're just trying to help someone. The calculus being you feel as if you might make a genuine remark only to receive a response interpreting said remark as the product of sexism e.g "out of persons A and B, I think B should run the company" where A is a woman and B is a man is simply far too likely to be met with "well of course a man would pick another man" than "it seems they carefully evaluated the attributes and qualities of A and B and B is likely better suited". The former response is itself sexist as it's basing assumptions about the decision on attributes of gender first and foremost, hence it's a sort of reverse sexism if you will. And the man's move here is sexist also in the regard that his calculus of the reverse sexism response is also based on the assumption that this dynamic exists and presents a real danger and it's all based primarily on gender too.

Sexism all the way down on both sides.

I've come to understand in life through experience there are a very thorny class of problems that I don't know of a proper name for, but have formulated my own concept of the "non-native speakers dilemma". It goes as follows:

You're on a bus and while listening to two strangers conversing you realise you can't quite understand what they're talking about. As a native speaker you feel perfectly confident that you know the language and you are simply missing context shared only by the individuals talking and hence it isn't possible for you to understand the conversation, and not because you don't know the language. If you are a non-native speaker, and depending on your level, you often start to doubt your abilities, and can never be fully sure if you simply don't understand because you're missing context that's not possible for you to obtain or there are gaps in your language skills that still need to be filled.

I had this realisation on the bus about a decade ago when learning Japanese. But I've often thought back to it in certain situations and these kind in particular seem to crop up a lot.

One example I overheard was a female engineer talking to another female non-engineer outside their workplace just about their experiences in their jobs. I heard the female engineer remark something along the lines of "the Architect often shoots down my ideas because I'm female".

I sat thinking to myself... That's interesting because the architect shoots down my ideas too (different workplace, so I don't _know_ her situation) but it's certainly not because I'm female, because I'm not female, but it's probably because I'm an intermediate level Dev with lots to learn and the idea has some flaws in it that he can see that I can't.

In this case I'm a "native speaker" so to speak, so I can be perfectly confident my thinking is accurate with respect to the reason why it's getting rejected. The female engineer is the so called "non-native speaker" where this pernicious dynamic exists making it nigh on impossible to confident that your assessment is accurate.

Curious if that metaphor makes sense to others, or if others ever noticed the same thing?

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#129
Society used to have a solution to this problem, it was a very rigorous set of manners and customs, protocol for how to address people that occupy different positions in the social hierarchy. After woman's emancipation and abolition of aristocracy such protocols became redundant, because at least ideologically we were all equal, and now this ideology is gone and a new one will probably require a new set of such social protocols ...

Re: Female Founder Secrets: Men Clamming Up

#130

I think fear is making people in general just clam up. Anything you say can be taken as offensive and the crowds bay for blood.

If only there could be some legal way protections like this would prevent companies from firing people from pure speculation and accusation alone...

The ironic thing is that this social behavior is what drives corporate culture to stronger conservativism.

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