In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway • Hacker News Board

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#121

Post by lostlogin » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

breakfastduck wrote: post #31

908B64B197 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. The requirements are often flat out wrong. The Phoenix payroll system comes to mind, the Canadian government tried to shift the blame to IBM, but have their hands tied since IBM delivered exactly what was in the contract. It's just that what the government decided to put in the contract has little to do with how they really do payroll.

Basically the story of most govt IT investments.

This sort of anti-government comment seems to crop up regularly.

My observation of corporate organisations attempting to guide software development is just as bad.

I’m a proponent of doing these things in-house, however that path is far from straightforward and has masses of pitfalls too.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#122

Post by WesolyKubeczek » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:00 AM UTC

Rule35 wrote: post #92

genuine_smiles wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 4. The requirements are often flat out wrong. Isn't this basically a given? I find it hard to imagine that any organization could come up with good, complete requirements before they've had any software written.

Right. But the client should never come up with the detailed spec. If they know what needs to be done it'd literally be faster for them to code it themselves. They should never produce more than a page or two of specs, outside of the central task itself, because most everything will change when under production anyways. A project like this is big enough that apps became a thing, and fundamentally changed twice, in th…

Yes, but your way would likely strip a friendly consultancy off a contract for a couple million of your favorite currency to produce said specifications.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#123

Post by ZWoz » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:01 AM UTC

developer92 wrote: post #111

dromtrund wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they read the code that tries to parse the data, and come up with formats that don't fit. If the code is open, they don't need accounts to see it

they need one to contribute changes though

They don't contribute changes. Server and official client is maintained by Stockholmsstad contractors. Open source project is alternative client, not full solution.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#124

Post by rad_gruchalski » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

developer92 wrote: post #111

dromtrund wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they read the code that tries to parse the data, and come up with formats that don't fit. If the code is open, they don't need accounts to see it

they need one to contribute changes though

The system that implements breaking changes is not the open source system. The open source system attempts to be compatible with the proprietary system. That is what it sounds like.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#125

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:03 AM UTC

908B64B197 wrote: post #4

> One parent managed to access other people's private data, leading to @Stockholmsstad being fined for bad security. ... And the fine, levied by bureaucrats paid with taxpayer's money was paid with... Taxpayer's money. “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” ― Ronald Reagan

[deleted]

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#126

Post by utrechtsouth » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:11 AM UTC

hutzlibu wrote: post #89

peteretep wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also internal company politics. What would fix much of this, for many projects, is a very experienced product person with final say over every feature, reporting directly to the CEO / board, and outranking everyone else in terms of decision making.

Sure, having skilled people with the right to make decisions solves almost everything. But who decides who is skilled enough? Then we are quickly in the realm of politics ..

> But who decides who is skilled enough?

Trial and error using a free market place.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#127

Post by mjevans » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

bjoli wrote: post #114

908B64B197 wrote: post #4

> One parent managed to access other people's private data, leading to @Stockholmsstad being fined for bad security. ... And the fine, levied by bureaucrats paid with taxpayer's money was paid with... Taxpayer's money. “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” ― Ronald Reagan

This is unrelated, but how in the world can he be held in such high regard in the US? Over here (Europe) he was widely regarded as a clown during his presidency, and the whole Iran/contra deal, together with the pardons by Bush senior, didn't really do his legacy any favours. Just a week ago a friend of mine (who does not share my views, and is generally positive of Reaganomics) said something along the lines of: "no…

Charisma and those who benefited. I've heard Regan was a popular actor at that time, and you need only look to the massive defense projects and 'support for farmers' to see how popular that would make such a president among the more rural base that tend to vote Republican in the US.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#128

Post by roncohen » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

mrweasel wrote: post #80

908B64B197 wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4. The requirements are often flat out wrong. The Phoenix payroll system comes to mind, the Canadian government tried to shift the blame to IBM, but have their hands tied since IBM delivered exactly what was in the contract. It's just that what the government decided to put in the contract has little to do with how they really do payroll.

The Danish government tried to getting a new tax collection system built. The specificatio was 6000 page, not including the tax law that needed to be implemented. It facinates me that no one ever stopped to wonder if was actually possible to implement all that. It failed horribly, costing billion of DKK in implementation cost and even more in taxes that couldn’t be collected.

The other problem here is that politicians are either oblivious or simple don't care about the cost associated with complexity in the laws. On top of that, the other unfortunate dynamic that exists is that politicians all work to get their little special case into new bills so they can point to that when their constituents ask how they influenced the new law.

Taken together, the complexity of the law just accumulates. Tax law in Denmark being a particularly gross example.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#129

Post by gambiting » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:13 AM UTC

bjoli wrote: post #114

908B64B197 wrote: post #4

> One parent managed to access other people's private data, leading to @Stockholmsstad being fined for bad security. ... And the fine, levied by bureaucrats paid with taxpayer's money was paid with... Taxpayer's money. “The most terrifying words in the English language are: I'm from the government and I'm here to help.” ― Ronald Reagan

This is unrelated, but how in the world can he be held in such high regard in the US? Over here (Europe) he was widely regarded as a clown during his presidency, and the whole Iran/contra deal, together with the pardons by Bush senior, didn't really do his legacy any favours. Just a week ago a friend of mine (who does not share my views, and is generally positive of Reaganomics) said something along the lines of: "no…

It's really simple - Americans approach politics as if it's a football game. If a guy is from their "team" then he gets support since being on the "correct" side is more important than the actual merits. So there's a LOT of people in US who have respect for someone like Reagan or Bush purely because they were on the "correct" team.

Re: In Stockholm there's currently an IT battle underway

#130

Post by utrechtsouth » Sat, Mar 27, 2021, 9:14 AM UTC

eCa wrote: post #44

IIUC, the open source app uses an unofficial/private api to communicate with the city’s application backend? Regardless of anything leading to the open source app being built, I struggle to take their side here. Looking at the code, it appears that they authenticate against the api? So it’s a third-party app using an api, against the first-party’s expressed wishes, to read and/or manipulate student data?[1] Of course…

It looks like users use a different frontend than the one provided by the government. So it's users changing their own data.

So that leaves a defense against... their own users? Makes no sense.

Plus the tax payers funded the platform so it's not like the government has any legitimate interest in protecting the product itself like a private business might.