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Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

ochronus.online

121–130 of 224 posts

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#121

I will disagree with one point. Neither eng managers nor tech leads should be doing project management. It is a unique skill and worth having someone explicitly in charge. They should own the structure of requirements docs, story breaktown, ticketing, jira processes, etc. While they may be somewhat technical they are more ensuring consistency and quality of process without burdening devs. The best team composition I…

It's impossible to overstate how much I agree with the need for a separate project management role. Project management is the biggest distraction I have from the "things only I can do" and the biggest morale and time suck. I don't have advice to give because I haven't solved my lack-of-project-management problem, but I sincerely believe I could be much more effective if this was off my plate.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2b) Start coding again because your superiors promote you to management but treat you like you’re still an IC and ask why you haven’t contributed any points to the latest sprint while actively shutting you out of the kinds of discussions and decisions an EM would be making in most other orgs—-while somehow simultaneously asking you to also be the bearer of frequently changing and poorly communicated business prioriti…

I keep seeing this IC term here but never saw it before, is that “Independent Consultant”?

[deleted]

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#123
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you happen to have been born with natural leadership skills (you probably haven’t) Leadership skills are important, but I disagree that leadership is something you’re either born with or not. Leadership can be taught, learned, and practiced. The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because the…

I don't get it, doesn't everyone dislike/struggle with these things? Who likes context switching, office politics, sitting in meetings and having difficult conversations

I really don't get it either because I hate all of those things, but that probably is why you and I don't want to be managers.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#124
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you happen to have been born with natural leadership skills (you probably haven’t) Leadership skills are important, but I disagree that leadership is something you’re either born with or not. Leadership can be taught, learned, and practiced. The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because the…

>The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because they’re the most competent IC on the team I think this is spot-on. People, for whatever reason, view management as the next step of a career when it's actually a career change. Yes, it's in the same domain, but it's a totally different job. I've done th…

I agree here to that this is the exact issue.

I will also add though that I think there is another dimension as well. I think much perceived middle manager "incompetence" stems from middle management juggling direction/pressure/expectations from senior management, and the realities of the program and the engineers. The best managers are capable of managing expectations from above while keeping their team shielded from all that overhead and just keeping the team chugging along and being productive. Other managers seem to have the ability to weigh their team down by allowing too much of the "managment overhead tasks" to leak down to individual engineers. I've seen this vary across programs and managers, and can't say I know all the answers, but I do know I much prefer the role of the IC....

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#125
post #58
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a manager, and I disagree. The ranges overlap: an early career engineer will definitely be paid less than an early career manager... but a top engineer should be able to earn more than the vast majority (if not all) of the managers.

Not true. The idea that an IC is going to out contribute a top manager who oversees dozens of lower tier ICs doesn't make a whole lot of sense. A good manager is a productivity multiplier which is why the top companies spend an arm and leg training up their managers. The real issue is that is much easier to manage a group of top engineers than it is to manage a group of engineers who think that they are top engineers…

And this is the perfect example of why so many companies are doing it wrong. Managers that truly believe they are the ones pulling the weight and making projects possible (without any mention to technology and eng. knowledge) and if not, it is because the engineers are over their minds and you have to micromanage them.

And because managers tend to be the ones proposing promotions or career upgrades, they reproduce this mindset by selection bias.

The point mentioned in some comment above about changing company if you feel forced to move to management has been proved by this comment. If you see this behaviour in management, no matter if you want to continue your IC career or move to management, run. Find a better place.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#126
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you happen to have been born with natural leadership skills (you probably haven’t) Leadership skills are important, but I disagree that leadership is something you’re either born with or not. Leadership can be taught, learned, and practiced. The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because the…

I don't get it, doesn't everyone dislike/struggle with these things? Who likes context switching, office politics, sitting in meetings and having difficult conversations

No. Some people like relationship building and diplomacy. Building the business. Having meetings fleshing out direction and staffing needs. And many others will put up with it for the increase in compensation and tell themselves it's not that bad.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#127
post #21

In about 90% of companies I’ve seen they expect you to do all the manager things and be an engineer too. It’s not so much a mistake individuals make as that it’s an explicit expectation that you’ll be wearing multiple hats. Folks generally get bombarded to manager because there’s no career ladder and this is what people think they have to do next to be able to continue to grow. And once you become a manager it doesn’…

Is it pressure if that's what you want? I explicitly took my managing role because I was going to still be able to code, not in spite of it.

I did the exact same thing, I liked the idea of being able to code still.

And then three months in I took stock and I didn’t like what I saw. I wasn’t able to devote the time I needed to help people with career development and truly enable them to shine. I was also slowing my team down because the time I could spend in code and crucially code review was much lower. PRs languished and folks had to go in and fix things after me.

So I dropped the code bits, aside from really small code fixes here and there across our code base and focussed on doing the management thing. I was happier and so was my team.

I hope it works out for you though!

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#128
post #65

1. Become an engineering manager 2. Stop coding 3. Do well for a few years until you become out of touch 4. Watch your team stop respecting you on technical subjects because you’re behind the times and too rusty but don’t know it so look foolish and are ignored when you give suggestions, which radically undermines your relationships with them as well as your ability to lead 5. Watch as your role morphs from a manager…

I seriously question #4. While the popular tools and languages and techniques churn, there are no fundamental revelations in software development that cannot be understood at a higher level by somebody who stopped programming in the 70s. If anything, not being obsessed with the churn helps these managers step back and ask fundamental questions that are often ignored by magpie developers. It is very possible to keep u…

No, I'm not talking about those kinds of skills per se. ("Fundamental revelations.") I'm talking about:

- Grokking what actually sucks about the tools, languages, frameworks, etc in use. And grokking what complaints of suckiness are shallow or misplaced. The former is an opportunity to deliver empathy for the team's suffering and propose good solutions, the latter is an opportunity to remind engineers (esp junior ones) not to be overly-cynical or see problems where they don't truly exist.

- Ability to participate as a true peer in technical discussions, which deepens the bond you have with your team. If you are able to contribute one or two concrete, correct, and actionable ideas that unblock developers or the project's construction every quarter, it pays dividends imo in counteracting dynamics where you are considered an "other" in certain contexts given your position. I'm not talking about things like "maybe you should write some tests" but "maybe you should ditch that testing framework because the problem you are hitting is a non-issue if you just write a special harness yourself. You can start from mine." It's no silver bullet, but it helps. If you literally save a week's worth of effort for a team member by cleverly reframing the work they are doing to a better MVP they can handle (via your domain knowledge and intuition about implementation difficulty) they will be unlikely to care if you accidentally forgot to send them a birthday email. If you don't do that regularly, and basically are a full people manager, the missing birthday email could be a big problem.

- If you aren't in the trenches at all, lots of problems will crop up over time that are insidiously hard to see once you've exited having the domain knowledge. For example, you won't be able to assess talent well enough to flag bullshitters who manage to sneak past your team's interviews. (Given you are the manager, you probably tilt more towards having the people skills needed to detect bullshitters which your team lacks, but without domain knowledge, neither you nor your team may have the total sum of skills needed to detect them.) Or, when giving overview discussions of how the software systems work to other managers, your team members might have to start biting their tongues when you're explaining things in a way that is objectively incorrect but coherent in your (now shallow) mental models. Having to regularly hear your manager saying something that is totally wrong is demoralizing, because it means you either have to "educate" your manager, which is awkward, or you have to effectively endorse what they are saying by staying silent.

All of these come from a loss of literacy in the local domain of the work your team is doing, not in general principles. These are totally different forms of literacy, and the latter one is dynamic and requires effort to maintain (and losing it comes opportunity cost.)

Edit: Also, people saying sitting in code reviews is good enough are fooling themselves imo - to believe that you also generally need to believe that you can become a good programmer on a project by just doing code reviews enough and then instantly be able to execute as a top-tier team member. This is objectively false. So the question is what margin is needed between "code review level literacy" and "building literacy" to get the benefits I mention. I'd argue it's a pretty big margin.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#129
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> unless you happen to have been born with natural leadership skills (you probably haven’t) Leadership skills are important, but I disagree that leadership is something you’re either born with or not. Leadership can be taught, learned, and practiced. The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because the…

>The real issue is that a lot of people who are pushed or drawn into management roles don’t actually like managing or leading. Some are pushed into management because they’re the most competent IC on the team I think this is spot-on. People, for whatever reason, view management as the next step of a career when it's actually a career change. Yes, it's in the same domain, but it's a totally different job. I've done th…

I don't agree with this. I enjoy management and coding. However, when I'm in a manager role, I consider contributing with coding to be an essential part of the job, to maintain my ability to lead the team with credibility, truly understand what their job is like, and differentiate myself relative to other managers, who by and large have bought into the narrative they can't and shouldn't try to code.

This cuts directly against the narrative by the article, and the narrative of the article is the common one. The argument seems to be "you just don't have enough time to do both well!" but in general, there's no free lunch here, you are choosing between different trade-offs. Management is hard no matter what, but if you already have the skill to contribute to a team's efforts, you're not just leaving money on the table you're lighting it on fire by abandoning it by letting yourself atrophy into becoming a manager who's skill stack is shallowly scoped to people management and leadership skills. Whenever you see a commonly held narrative like this that has clear negative consequences to those acting on it, all other things being equal it pays to be contrarian as long as you don't fall into the obvious traps, since you're going to differentiate yourself.

I'm surely not the best manager and I'm sure I suck at a lot of it, but everyone does somehow. I'll go head to head anytime with an engineering manager who doesn't ship anything anymore any day of the week in terms of who engineers would rather have as their leader when building something difficult.

Re: Common Mistakes of New Engineering Managers

#130
post #77
post #71

I don't care about any of these points, and I especially dislike one-on-ones. I just want my manager to do one thing: make decisions. To resolve conflicts, and make sure discussions wrap up and reach conclusions.

What about career growth? Great managers have helped me grow so much, and advocate for the steps I want in my career.

I would agree with that. But the problem (already mentioned) is: how could a manager help you grow in the technical field if the manager is out of touch with it and didn't do coding or dev work for years?

In any case, if I have to choose (and more times than not I wished I could) I would choose the option of the first comment.

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