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Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

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Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#121

Post by enko123 »

shitloadofbooks wrote: post #62
xiphias2 wrote: post #42

There are so many frustrated nocoiners here on HN, it’s crazy. It’s interesting that on a tech site people can be more negative towards new technology, than on youtube for example, where I don’t see so much hate....I just don’t understand why.

I think the answer is because it IS a tech site. Members here understand that Bitcoin is a vastly inefficient and ineffective way to achieve the end goal. My view is definitely that Bitcoin solves a problem I don't have, in just about the worst way possible (proof of work).

Only if you have no savings. Petrodollar not as healthy as it used to be.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#122

Post by rspeele »

Guzba wrote: post #120
rspeele wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoin definitely has some neat properties. It is interesting having control of your funds being driven purely by your signing keys. That drew me in with some geeky allure as something quite unique. And the scenarios like "crossing a border with a fortune stored as a memorized passphrase in your head" are cool in a cyberpunk kind of way. But these days I'm in the "bitcoin is a paperclip maximizer" camp. I don't real…

I follow all of this reasoning and really don't disagree. I would just add that, while I don't want All of my money to be based on crypto, I do like that I could feasibly have Some of it. It seems like a richer or more dynamic future. The PoW stuff, yeah, there is a reason it exists as you know but it is undeniably insane too. PoS is going to be interesting to see how it goes with Eth. As a third dimension, I am very…

The solar part, I'm very unconvinced about.

If solar becomes 100x cheaper than today's energy sources, but bitcoin mining still pays a large reward, bitcoin miners will just use 100x more energy, right? They're in a race with each other, it doesn't make sense to leave any extra hashrate capacity on the table since if you don't use it, somebody else will and they'll get more of the block rewards.

Maybe that's fine, since solar is still zero-emission, but surely there's still some cost to producing that energy (such as the space taken up by the solar panels, the cost to make and replace them, etc). Otherwise it'd be free, not just cheap.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#123

Post by belltaco »

inshadows wrote: post #32
Daishiman wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was no comment about BTC difficulty. It's a comment about the pernicious impact of BTC on the world with practically no benefit to show for it.

Yeah, and the truth is Bitcoin doesn't have negative impact on the world. Miners do.

Almost everything in Bitcoin was intentionally designed around mining.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#124

Post by gremlinsinc »

dvh1990 wrote: post #69
verdverm wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If those events happen, do you think the infra (electricity generation and telecom interconnection) that it relies upon will still be around?

Yes. I'm talking about financial collapse, not destruction of infra.

I'm pro-blockchain (but not POW) ... and not really as they currently exist. I see a future with UBI, and better taxation of wealthy baked INTO the crypto so that equality is a bit more fair, and everything functions more "automated" so less bureacracy.

However, I've been wondering lately what happens in a future where the grid is destroyed by a sun storm? Say the power grids get knocked off for 21 months (I read this is a very possible scenario with a big sun flare), as well as a lot of satellites.

If we move a lot of the world's monetary systems/value to blockchain, how do we use blockchain with no internet or electricity?

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#125

Post by tracedddd »

kelp wrote: post #96
tracedddd wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This place was flooded with extremely biased nocoiners long before energy consumption was a hot topic. I truly believe it’s simply that they want it to fail since they missed the boat, and their ego is on the line as a forward thinking, “ahead of the curve” technologist. It can’t be the biggest development of the last decade, what would that say about them? Therefore, inefficient ponzi that’s only used for drugs!

I was on the boat in 2010. I got off it early when I decided the whole thing was a speculative bubble. I don't really have a lot of regrets about that though. I have more regrets about selling other things too early, like stock positions I once owned.

Cryptocurrency has indeed been through several speculative bubbles, and we may even be in the midst of one now.

However, I think the speculative bubble valuation of 2010 is well justified now. The thing about speculation is that sometimes the speculators are right. Tesla is almost certainly in a speculative bubble, too, but every day they arguably justify a higher base value.

That said, you seem relatively balanced for a crypto critic, and didn’t miss the boat but rather jumped off, so I’m not sure you’re part of the cohort I’m describing.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#126

Post by c0nducktr »

xiphias2 wrote: post #91
tracedddd wrote: post #72

It’s getting old seeing the same posts with no new data or analysis day after day. I get that people feel this is important, or perhaps are excited to share something wrong with Bitcoin, but I’d be surprised if 99% of the regular visitors to this site haven’t heard about Bitcoin’s energy use and perhaps heard some counterarguments already several times. It really does seem like a grudge more than a genuine care. For…

I felt the same way as well, but you know what they say: all publicity is good publicity. If you parrot the same thing over and over, some people may get interested, why other people are so angry....it's because they are nocoiners.

"Everyone who has a problem with bitcoin is a nocoiner" is bullshit and you know it.

I have money invested in cryptocurrencies, and still don't like that it's an incredible waste of energy.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#127

Post by xiphias2 »

c0nducktr wrote: post #126
xiphias2 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I felt the same way as well, but you know what they say: all publicity is good publicity. If you parrot the same thing over and over, some people may get interested, why other people are so angry....it's because they are nocoiners.

"Everyone who has a problem with bitcoin is a nocoiner" is bullshit and you know it. I have money invested in cryptocurrencies, and still don't like that it's an incredible waste of energy.

I accept it as a part of the system / algorithm.

People would prefer if Matrix multiplication was O(n^2) algorithm (which would get rid of a lot of waste resources in the datacenters), but people accept that it takes more resources.

What I don’t accept is the amount of lies that people say about Proof of Stake algorithms being an improvement over Bitcoin’s current protocol without any security compromise.

If I see an algorithm that is less costly while giving the same security as Bitcoin, I will evaluate it, but the amount of shaming that I get for paying miners a seignorage to secure my money is what I don’t have to tolerate.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#128

Post by innagadadavida »

kelp wrote: post #79
uncletammy wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Proof of work blockchains should be banned by various governments for this reason alone. How does one ban a blockchain? Serious question. Would you only arrest the miners or would you also arrest non-mining full node operators? How could you tell if regular citizens were transacting with POW coins? Would you subpoena telecom companies for records where customers have visited known sites which transact in POW coins?…

You regulate exchanges like Coinbase and Gemini, so there are no legitimate ways to trade your proof of work cryptocurrency for USD (or your local gov backed currency). Then the demand for the crypto currency plummets. In 2010-2011, I traded BTC for USD in person, with a laptop on wifi. And via PayPal with someone I met on IRC, where there was a bot that kept track of your reputation so the BTC sellers would know if…

Another option is to levy wealth tax in bitcoin holdings. This is definitely less draconian that what you are proposing, but will achieve similar results.

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#129

Post by dvh1990 »

lottin wrote: post #97
dvh1990 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course you don't have the problem because your government is currently not oppressing you and nobody is targeting you. But if that were to change I believe you'll start appreciating Bitcoin more.

The idea that some made-up money that only exists on the internet is some kind of weapon against oppressive governments is so out of touch with reality, that it's incomprehensible how somebody can actually believe that.

You wouldn't think that if you were Chinese, Syrian, Lebanonian, and many other states

Re: Bitcoin may consume as much energy as all data centers globally

#130

Post by dvh1990 »

rspeele wrote: post #82
dvh1990 wrote: post #44

Bitcoin is insurance for when the banks go bust.

That scenario is so bad, if it happens, the numbers in your computer will not even be in the top 10 things you're worried about.

I don' think so. Not if you have Bitcoin to pay everyone when other things go bust.
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