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“User engagement” is code for “addiction”

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Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#121

Post by PontifexMinimus »

AdmiralGinge wrote: post #117
PontifexMinimus wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> they essentially told people "you're a downtrodden proletariat buffeted about by forces well outside your control That's the plain and simple truth, isn't it? I mean, I don't control facebook.

Yeah it might be true, but it's extremely counterproductive to point this out when you're trying to convince someone of something. People like to feel like they have agency, even if it's mostly an illusion.

People also don't like to be lied to, and most people are well aware they don't control Facebook.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#122

Post by ceh123 »

rapind wrote: post #55
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

We’re just witnessing advertising’s race to the bottom. Eventually everything published is questioned because all forms of media are incentivized to push drivel for eyeballs. The optimist in me see’s how ridiculous and blatant the drivel is becoming and suspects we’ll achieve some sort of collective enlightenment before we extinct ourselves. A smarter media then emerges (timing is everything here) eschewing advertisi…

Paid services to align interests with the user (best user experience wins) are the way to go and I really hope they win out in the long run. I also think individual driven filters and algorithms are the way to go. In my experience, heavily AI/ML driven algorithms for user experience (think spotify suggestions) lead to overfitting super quickly. ML assistance can be amazing (obviously), but I know I want some degree of manual control on my algorithms.

Another plug[0] but, I'm hoping to be a part of this solution. Just a personal project right now, but I'm building a search website whose end goal is to be ad-free (paid) and let users create filters to remove any of the countless trash websites that SEO their way to the top of google.

Currently I've just got it working for web search and a few filters I've created for myself (removes a ton of websites I never find value in, some blogs, news sites, pinterest, etc.)

[0] https://hadal.io

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#123

Post by alcover »

HNfriend234 wrote: post #26

Social media is a perfect example of where this is used. I know countless people that are literally addicted to it. They want to see every new update continuously and the social media apps are designed to do this through notifications. I saw this clear as day when I was at jury duty. We were waiting for the court to get back into session. There was a girl sitting next to me on the bench and I noticed about every 5 mi…

A girl was sitting next to me on a train. For the whole one hour journey she scrolled and switched between apps in a spasmodic manner. At times she would lay the phone down for a few secs then resume at once.

It looked sick. It looked like someone on amphetamines.

edit: wording

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#124

Post by heterodoxxed »

Imagine how different social media would look if it were subscription based and required much, much less investment and revenue could grow linearly with the userbase.

The incentive of an ad-supported, vc-funded social media is to addict you.

The incentive of a subscription service is to be useful enough that you stay subscribed. If you log in once a week but never cancel, that's the ideal situation for a subscription service.

What I wrestle with is whether consumers will ever accept a small subscription fee (and I mean VERY small) after they've been given everything for free, even if it meant less psychological manipulation, no ads and strong privacy.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#125

Post by ceejayoz »

ummonk wrote: post #101
tppiotrowski wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you provide some reading material about the scientists that get paid millions of dollars to keep you hooked? This is the first time I’ve heard of scientists involved.

FANG pay is usually hundreds of thousands not millions, but most data scientists at these companies are working to optimize user engagement.

They spend millions on multiple scientists, not per-head.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#126

Post by heterodoxxed »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #29

I don't like the current trend of social media apps burying users under push notifications, calls to action, and other engagement hooks. However, there's a second, parallel problem adding fuel to the fire: The more we talk about overindulgence in social media (or Netflix, or video games, or fast food) as an act perpetrated by evil corporations on us helpless individuals, the less sense of individual agency we give ou…

| the less sense of individual agency we give ourselves

In aggregate, the population is at the mercy of material forces. Turning a social problem into an individual moral failing has never managed to solve anything at scale.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#127

Post by ceh123 »

throwaway1525 wrote: post #93
roughly wrote: post #81

I feel like there's basically two business models in the world - you can be a baker, in which you try to create a product that customers will want on its merits, and work to make the best possible customer experience, or you can be a crack dealer. I think a lot of people think they're bakers, but you gotta realize, the moment you start sprinkling crack in the cookies, you're not selling cookies anymore.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

To piggy back on this, is it possible to continue being a baker at scale without pricing most people out of your product?

i.e. is it possible to provide something like (internet search) or (social networking) that relies on a paid model? Not everyone who needs/uses google or facebook can afford an iPhone.

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#128

Post by WesolyKubeczek »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #74
legerdemain wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you call yourself helplessly "addicted" to Twitter? If not, then you disagree with the premise of TFA.

I would. Every morning, I wake up saying I'm going to log off Twitter for the day as soon as my coffee's done, and most days I end up logging multiple hours of Twitter time.

What helped me was actually deleting my account and after that, not feeling like creating a new one.

I still peruse feeds of some people I used to follow, but now, instead of doing it compulsively every hour or whenever I need my dopamine, I do it once a month or so, if I don’t forget. I don’t have them bookmarked, so I also enter the full URLs.

And if Twitter says I need to log in to read more of a thread, or whatever, too bad. I don’t have that thingy that you use to log in to Twitter.

Now, Facebook is a different story since they offer a very walled garden. You cannot even read most of the stuff unless you log in, by default. Trouble is, there are people on it I interact with. As it happens with some of those people, Facebook is the only way to reach them.

And another thing is Hackernews, of course.

See, those are places where stuff happens. You go there, scroll to what interests you, engage in a discussion, and it almost feels like meeting people again, especially in a pandemic world.

Or I just want to feed my brain with new stuff to get that sweet dopamine.

I think that what could change this addiction could be entraining the brain to release dopamine as a reward for engaging into more immersive, time-consuming activities. Like reading more of the long form, deep articles or books. Watching a 2 hour movie instead of 15 minute usual youtube fodder. Get that side project to a usable state (starts crying).

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#129

Post by alcover »

andrewla wrote: post #47

This kind of semantic game has to stop. If you water down the meaning of "addiction" enough then you can say that anything is "addictive" and with that, you can carry over all the connotations of the word. Then people start saying "I'm addicted to coffee" and "I'm addicted to bread" and before you know it people saying "I'm addicted to heroin" are met with "well, why don't you just stop, like I did with coffee for a…

Yes it's addiction for many users.

They're hooked on notifications, not disabling them even though it interrupts real-life conversations, sleep, scenery enjoying, etc..

Re: “User engagement” is code for “addiction”

#130

Post by marcinzm »

roughly wrote: post #103
throwaway1525 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you give few examples "baker" products which have scaled to really large scale? I always see it as everybody starts as a baker but over time it becomes a sliding scale.

I'd consider the auto industry to be a "baker" industry (for the most part). Ikea's a "baker", GAP is a "baker". A lot of the pre-digital world made pure play baked goods.

>A lot of the pre-digital world made pure play baked goods.

Coupon codes on your receipt, planned obsolescence, strategic item placement in store to encourage buying additional or more expensive items, loyalty programs and points, physical marketing mailings, targeted pre-internet advertising, etc.

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