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The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

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Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#121

Post by aardvarkr »

ivanbakel wrote: post #42
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

> They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. I wouldn't necessarily object to that particular policy. It's a shame to waste perfectly good medicine in a pandemic, but would we feel the same if he had not found anybody vulnerable who was available, and instead ended up vaccinating his own children, who are fit and healthy? What if, instead, he taken…

So your problem is that it’s not fair how he distributed it? You’d rather see life saving medicine trashed rather than go into a human being’s arm? How can you defend that position? It’s so unethical.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#122

Post by Grustaf »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #44
treis wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able I don't understand why people make arguments like this. Throwing them away and giving them to friends and family aren't the only two options. There's a whole swath of acceptable and achievable options. Giving doses to friends and family is a pretty bright ethical line. I don't think arresting him is the rig…

Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind? The article mentions that he tried vaccinating everyone in the clinic and called the county to ask; I'm legitimately unsure what else he could have done to find people.

Obviously the best alternative is to make sure to vaccinate an even multiple of 10 people before you close. So if you're about to close, just finished a vial and a single person shows up, then don't open a new vial and put yourself in the position where you have to run around and find patients.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#123

Post by treis »

crispyambulance wrote: post #98
treis wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is there a specific alternative option you have in mind Go to the nearest grocery store/ Firehouse / police station and give them to front line workers.

That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe? He distributed the vaccine to people that knew him (or were in his social network) in the very limited time he had left. The DA who pursued this should be dis-barred.

>That sounds superficially reasonable, but would you get what appears to be a vaccination from some random stranger that shows up with a syringe?

With ID, sure. Besides, he's been the medical director of the Covid response for the county since April. His job was to put procedures to handle situations like this in place.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#124

Post by wycy »

It would be so simple to have a system where everyone can sign up with the local health department to receive extra doses at the end of the day. If there are extra doses, you receive a text message and have 10 minutes to confirm that you'll be there within the hour, otherwise it moves on to the next person. There should be no reason a single dose of this stuff should ever go to waste.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#125

Post by lotsofpulp »

grayhatter wrote: post #118
lotsofpulp wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covering your ass isn’t a weak defense for the underlings. There exists a leader(s) somewhere that made the rules and that can change the rules. They are the only ones responsible, and I don’t see why anyone else should stick their neck out and risk their income for it. It’s actually a strategy for leaders to want the underlings to stick their neck out, so that they can be sacrificed as a scapegoat when convenient. (…

Where does the moral line lie then? what's difference that makes 'just following orders' suddenly not apply? In this specific case; where's the prosecutorial discretion? If it's coming down from on high, why aren't their names in this article?

With the prosecutor. In a government, it starts with the politician. I don’t know why the article doesn’t state who is responsible for the rule making, but I’m always an advocate for more transparency.

> what's difference that makes 'just following orders' suddenly not apply?

I don’t know, but this situation isn’t it in my opinion. It can be fixed with a flick of a pen (or email) by a higher up.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#126

Post by dkural »

colechristensen wrote: post #120
ascagnel_ wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of this comes from the Reagan-era idea of "welfare queens" -- that because the idea of "government handouts" are so enticing, people will cheat the system to get them. There are two issues with this: - "government handouts" and a reliance on welfare are typically a symptom, not a root cause, of an ailing society -- there are bigger issues at play around wealth and ownership if a large segment of the population…

I likewise know someone who intentionally makes as little money as possible in order to take advantage of state support program. Or to be more accurate, makes as much money as possible under the various limits for benefits while living in a comfortable (essentially inherited) situation. This is a person with high education, without any major disability or impediment to working, they just choose not to work because th…

Do you care to substantiate your anecdote?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#127

Post by ageitgey »

chadash wrote: post #49

The real issue here is that federal and state governments didn't think through the logistics of distributing vaccines even though it has been many months since we've known a vaccine would be coming. Where I live, there are about 10 different places that vaccinate, between county governments, pharmacies and hospitals. All of them have separate registration systems. Meanwhile, appointments go quickly and appointment av…

The system you describe is exactly what is happening in the UK.

There is a country-wide registry of everyone (already existing, because the NHS covers everyone's healthcare) and everyone is assigned a place in line to get vaccinated based on their estimated clinical risk, from highest to lowest.

Everyone gets a letter in the mail when their turn comes up allowing them to register for any of the currently open vaccine appointments at one central website. There's little to no fight to book slots because the appointment system is paced by the letters.

When a whole risk group is nearly completely vaccinated (so far, that includes age 80+, 75+, 70+, and social care workers), then that group switches over to open registration to encourage any stragglers to get vaccinated.

Anyone who has an invitation letter or is in one of the nearly-finished groups can get an appointment scheduled on a simple central website or by calling their local doctor: https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/coronavirus-covid-19/coronavir...

The priority queue of people left to vaccinate (and the logic behind it) is widely publicized and progress through the steps widely tracked in the media:

1. residents in a care home for older adults and their carers

2. all those 80 years of age and over and frontline health and social care workers

3. all those 75 years of age and over

4. all those 70 years of age and over and clinically extremely vulnerable individuals

5. all those 65 years of age and over

6. all individuals aged 16 years to 64 years with underlying health conditions which put them at higher risk of serious disease and mortality

7. all those 60 years of age and over

8. all those 55 years of age and over

9. all those 50 years of age and over

It is estimated that taken together, these groups represent around 99% of preventable mortality from COVID-19.

The UK is currently working on group #5 and catching any remaining people left in #1 - #4.

My point is not that the UK is doing everything perfectly (obviously not). It's just that a mass vaccination system like this is doable and easily could have been done in the US if the government was more together over the last year. And organization works - the UK is not only significantly ahead of the US in number of shots administered per capita, but it also has a much higher percentage of age 70+ citizens reached (well over 90%) while the US vaccinations so far are more spread across age ranges.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#128

Post by Igelau »

ivanbakel wrote: post #42
rjbwork wrote: post #5

This is just Kafkaesque. People in a position of authority with blind adherence to rules intended for optimal scenarios. They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. This whole thing is a logistical clusterfuck and they're trying to throw this dude under the bus. It's obscene.

> They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. I wouldn't necessarily object to that particular policy. It's a shame to waste perfectly good medicine in a pandemic, but would we feel the same if he had not found anybody vulnerable who was available, and instead ended up vaccinating his own children, who are fit and healthy? What if, instead, he taken…

The thing is, a vaccine isn't exactly a good that people want, try to get, then they have it and someone else doesn't. It's not a Furby. Every single person in the population who gets it is benefitting the others who haven't gotten it. Why would you waste it when you know giving it to literally anyone will benefit everyone?

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#129

Post by Grustaf »

aardvarkr wrote: post #121
ivanbakel wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're literally saying he should have just thrown them away instead of distributing them as best he was able. I wouldn't necessarily object to that particular policy. It's a shame to waste perfectly good medicine in a pandemic, but would we feel the same if he had not found anybody vulnerable who was available, and instead ended up vaccinating his own children, who are fit and healthy? What if, instead, he taken…

So your problem is that it’s not fair how he distributed it? You’d rather see life saving medicine trashed rather than go into a human being’s arm? How can you defend that position? It’s so unethical.

You can't separate this from the decision to open a new vial when there was only one person in line.

Re: The Vaccine Had to Be Used. He Used It. He Was Fired

#130

Post by aktuel »

To open a batch you should have an equal amount of people already queued up for the shot. If at the end there are still unused shots for whatever reason I would give the doctor in charge full authority to use those however they see fit as long as they are not selling them for money or other benefits.

Sadly the US has now a system where everyone with any responsibilities has zero authority and everyone with authority has zero accountability.

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