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An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

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Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#121

Post by com2kid »

macspoofing wrote: post #82
aerosmile wrote: post #17

There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16 year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one of the guys' jackets that belonged to…

>Deeply embedded in our evolutionary story is the urge to protect people you have something in common with Deeper than that is identity. In fact, after basic needs are met, your identity (cultural, ethnic, religious, and yes, even national) is one of the most important aspect of your humanity. Every nation in the world, has very tight immigration policies and border controls. That's not a coincidence. >Rule #1: teams…

Immigration policies were a direct result of the creation of social welfare programs.

Remember, 200 years ago most European countries only existed in a proto form of what we recognize today.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#122

Post by nradov »

lmm wrote: post #113
nradov wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US has had a volunteer military for decades. People who would refuse to fight simply never volunteer in the first place. Boycotting companies for extending a few minor courtesies to the troops is ridiculous and ineffective. If you want to make a difference then get active in politics.

> The US has had a volunteer military for decades. It gets those "volunteers" by putting the lower classes in a position where their only way of getting education and healthcare is to sign up for the military, and then high-pressure sales tactics to get teenagers to sign a contract that'll bind them for decades.

Actually most military recruits now come from the middle classes. Largely because so many lower class youths fail to meet recruiting standards due to having a criminal record, health problems, poor fitness, history of drug use, or lack of high school diploma. Most enlistment contracts only last a few years. In some cases those have been forcibly extended through a stop loss order, but that doesn't last for decades.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#123

Post by pugworthy »

My Dad helped enable one of these "after the war" meetups.

His older brother was on the USS Phoenix, a US light cruiser that was in Pearl Harbor when it was bombed. His brother survived that, but eventually succumbed to sickness in the war and died.

My Dad started digging into the history of the ship later in life, and learned that it was ultimately sold to the Argentine Navy, where it became the ARA General Belgrano. The Belgrano was sunk during during the Falklands War by the Royal Navy submarine Conqueror with 323 lost.

Wanting to keep digging more, my Dad got in contact with a man who had been on board the Belgrano, and they became pen pals.

And digging more, he eventually struck up a friendship with a sailor from the Conqueror as well, and they too became pen pals.

And then he got the two of them to start talking to each other. It took a while to get them talking but it ended up being very cathartic, in particular for the British sailor, who had felt great guilt for what they had done. All three still share letters and emails to this day.

There's a PS to this story in a way. Ever the digger my Dad also got an introduction to a gentleman who was a Japanese pilot at Pearl Harbor. My Dad eventually flew to Japan to meet him.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#125

Post by TimTheTinker »

zaik wrote: post #114
TimTheTinker wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks, and agreed with that — organizations that transcend country boundaries are great, as long as they’re not vested with political power. Perhaps the OP was talking about sports teams in particular? Forming sports teams based on geographic area fits well, and gives people someone to root for without alienating other groups for what would amount to wrongfully discriminatory reasons in other contexts. But if geogra…

> organizations that transcend country boundaries are great, as long as they’re not vested with political power The EU is an organization that transcends countries and is vested with political power, and despite being constantly bashed by far-right parties in Europe, has built a single market in Europe and many new freedoms for it citizens, like the right to move to and work/study in other member states.

The EU is great insofar as it functions merely as a multilateral treaty and economic zone. But the moment the EU itself arrests someone or issues a court injunction against an individual or small business (or gains the legal power to do so), it has crossed the line in my opinion. Same with the UN, NATO, NAFTA, etc.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#126

Post by pjc50 »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #78
aerosmile wrote: post #17

There is so much gold in here. The human race would do well to explore how it's possible to turn hatred into love. It clearly happened here, and I've witnessed it on a smaller scale as a 16 year old in Vienna. As an immigrant, it was easy to find yourself in the wrong place at a wrong time. That finally happened one night, and the only thing that saved me was seeing a sign on one of the guys' jackets that belonged to…

> Rule #1: teams should not be divided on a country by country basis. I don't think I agree. It's great for individuals and countries to be friendly, but I see two problems with a one-world-government system: 1. It concentrates an extreme quantity of power in the hands of a few people. Power has a potential of corrupting those who hold it, and I believe that potential increases on an exponential (or at least an algeb…

It's interesting that the OP said "teams" meaning sport and now at least two comments have thought that "teams" meant politics or nationality.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#127

Post by pjc50 »

TimTheTinker wrote: post #107
whatshisface wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The OP was not proposing a one world government. They were proposing that there be huge number of overlapping social organizations, based on natural similarities. The International Association of Basket Weavers is not even comparable to a one-world government.

Thanks, and agreed with that — organizations that transcend country boundaries are great, as long as they’re not vested with political power. Perhaps the OP was talking about sports teams in particular? Forming sports teams based on geographic area fits well, and gives people someone to root for without alienating other groups for what would amount to wrongfully discriminatory reasons in other contexts. But if geogra…

Given the way Premier League works, it's not really geographic any more. "Arsenal" is owned by an American, plays in a stadium named after the airline of the UAE, recruits its team from all over the world, and is named after the Royal arsenal that no longer exists.

Names and history are important. That's why there has been such a fight over renaming US teams with racist names.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#128

Post by Diesel555 »

I think it’s pretty interesting to read about pilots shot down in WW1 over enemy territory. They were brought into the enemy’s squadrons and treated with respect. They would talk and laugh. The book The Aviators talks about this a bit.

It also talks about how Rickenbacker didn’t want to kill the people in the airplane he shot down (well it got bitter after Lufbery died). He just wanted to shoot down the airplane and accomplish his mission.

I think fighter pilots don’t have a hatred for the others across the line. They study their skill to have an advantage over the enemy’s systems. It’s not all athleticism. It’s science. As Rickenbacker said “Fighting in the air is not a sport. It is scientific murder.” I would assume the same goes for the SA-3 Low Blow operator.

Re: An F-117 pilot and the officer who shot him down meet, 15 years later (2013)

#129

Post by necovek »

crusty wrote: post #118

One aspect of this that lends itself to the type of "easy" reconciliation that makes us think avoiding war shouldn't be so hard, is that neither party here actually had a sustained interest in the other. Serbia didn't have years, let alone decades or centuries, of grievance against the USA, and vis versa. The same with the US and Vietnam, or Japan, or Germany, or just about every other war the US has gotten involved…

I think the ultimate solution needs to come down from UN in setting a legal framework for parts of the country to secede.

I.e. it's generally an economic interest for separatists rise to power, and I wonder if we could stymie that by making it legal for parts of countries to secede under a certain set of terms (paying "damages" to the parent country, obligating parent country to allow free travel and similar for a preset duration of 10 or 20 years).

In the end, I don't think we'd end up with a gazillion small countries, because there is value in having a larger market and freely moving people, even if it might start off with a spike in new countries being established.

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