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China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

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Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#121
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK…

I am not from China, but I am from Russia.

Western posturing and brinksmanship isn't going to bring about any meaningful change. It's been tried for seventy years against the USSR, with no effect [1]. All that a foreign enemy (that loudly proclaims their belligerence) does is unite people behind shitty leaders. (As we have seen in Western democracies when their governments are more concerned with blaming external enemies, rather than fixing internal problems.)

Change in the CCP will have to come from movements within China. These kinds of changes take generations, and will not always result in the kind of change you would like to see.

Even in an authoritarian country, there is still a feedback loop between public sentiment, and their ruling government. At the end of the day, no government can govern without the consent of its people. It's just a much slower feedback loop than what you see in countries that have regular elections [2].

Strong-man anti-China posturing will not do anything to China, and its architects know that. China is not the target of their behaviour - looking strong in front of domestic audiences is. In the 90s, tough-on-crime was popular in America, for the same reasons, to devastating consequences. Today, we've moved on to tough-on-China (which will result in devastating consequences if it ever moves past rhetoric, and into a shooting war.)

[1] The USSR imploded in a combination of incompetence, complacency, and a desire for its leaders (Gorbachev and his allies, who won a power struggle against Brezhnev's circle) to stop the worst of its repressive practices.

[2] Which in itself operates on a timeline of decades, if you look at how long it takes to go from public sentiment, to the primaries, to actual results in elections.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#122
post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

All that just because some head of states visited him before the head of state.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. It isn’t really a credible source.

Radio free Asia has deep ties to US agencies. "Deep ties to US agencies" is sensationalizing the facts. It's part of the United States government, and nobody has ever tried to keep that secret. Not RFA, not the U.S. Government. Nobody. "Deep ties" makes it seem like it's trying to be covert. It's not. It isn’t really a credible source. It's one of the more credible sources of news in Asia. Especially for more authori…

Entirely possible, probably likely, that it's somewhere in the center. Not all propaganda and not all unbiased

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#124
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. Eh... Do I think Bezos is a visionary responsible for all of Amazon's success? No. But culture comes from the top. There's a lot of ways to run a company poorly, especially if it's doing somethi…

People thought the same thing about apple when Jobs died but it's up 900% in the 9 years since his death

Stock price isn't especially meaningful in the context of the current economic times. I'd say Jobs dying is more or less along the lines of what my worldview expectations are. Apple is fine. But its product offerings tend to be a lot shittier and generic.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#125
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK…

The CCP is walking a fine line between relaxing it’s hold over day to day things enough to make western businesses feel comfortable operating there, and maintaining the CCP as the ultimate source of authority over all aspects of society. Just from my knowledge, courts is an example. They’ve had western legal scholars come in and help reform their legal system. These days, it’s not lawless in the sense that arbitrary whims of party officials will decide court cases. But the courts are there to ultimately implement party will—it’s not like in the US where some federal judge will randomly enjoin something Trump does. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-policy-law/chinas-t...

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#126
post #95

Guo Wengui said back in September 2019 that "Jack Ma would be jailed or killed" on Kyle Bass's youtube channel. [1] At this point its not even a question of whether we will see Jack Ma in public again. Overnight he went from billionaire to peasantry. We've seen dozen cases like this: 1) Billionaire disappears or is "killed" 2) Billionaire's company becomes nationalized 3) Rinse & Repeat Everybody who isn't familiar w…

>Imagine spending most of your life building a massive business and then one day it is taken from you by force by an authoritarian ruler.

I don't think most of the people praising the CCP or (any other similar system where one's life work can easily be taken) know what it's like to be in business for one's self.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#127
post #75

The West thought once China is full of billionaires, the billionaires having all that wealth would then have the power to oppose and dissolve the CCP. Didn't go as planned.

Why is it better for Chinese billionaires to run the country than the CCP? Seems like just trading one master for another.

Billionaires can be held more accountable than government because they must continually compete for people's dollars.

Movements like the Chick-Fil-A boycott and #deletefacebook do hurt companies and billionaires and can force a change in behavior quickly. There's no feedback loop like that with the CCP, and the US gives citizens more power but having to wait 4 years to vote on a change is a very slow feedback loop.

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We in America are much too obsessed with "one great man" theories of history. I also think we are inclined to underestimate the competency of Chinese governmental figures, which is structured very differently from the West. Eh... Do I think Bezos is a visionary responsible for all of Amazon's success? No. But culture comes from the top. There's a lot of ways to run a company poorly, especially if it's doing somethi…

I think the problem with the “great man” theory is the thinking that if Bezos/Musk hadn’t done their thing nothing would have happened. I am pretty sure that in a free society one or many others would have achieved similar things. For example the computer industry would have been fine without Bill Gates or Steve Jobs. Or it may have been even better off without them overshadowing others? Same for eCommerce. Maybe thi…

Yeah. Less so the rarity of the great person, but the rarity of the opportunity. But both are required for teh magicks

Re: China CCP to Nationalize Jack Ma's Alibaba and Ant Group – Report

#129
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Misunderstanding about the inner workings of China isn't the CCP's fault, at least not at this level. The discourse about China, misunderstandings about how the Chinese systems functions, and lack of even a basic interest in getting a realistic view of China are rampant. The average view of China in the US is so cartoonish it's quite ridiculous. If you talk to an educated, middle-class Chinese audience about the US p…

Serious question: How does one get educated about modern China? (I'm Chinese but mostly Western educated) Having seen my grandparents/parents/relatives escaping communist China and now my generation escaping HK, it has heavily influenced me on how even people who identified as Chinese and hoping for democracy and freedom for their own cousins in China are being played and lied to for multiple decades. My people in HK…

> It's believed that the only way is to "distrust and verify" and not kowtow to their ways like what the West had been doing for the previous decades

The only way that will work will be dropping few tank divisions on direction to Beijing.

I've dealt a lot with people like Xi, and Putin in my life, during my childhood, and youth in worse parts of Russia. I've tried everything, nothing stops them, they will keep pushing with brazen arrogance.

I had once such guy taken away by police, he came out on bail, and came back to bully me the next day.

They are pretty much like cartoon zombies, keep coming back until they cannot.

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