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Stripe bans Trump campaign

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Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#121

Post by 37rudydyeh »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

The spectrum is authoritarianism and anarchy. Anarchists can still be tyrannical.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#122

Post by jo032 »

nobody9999 wrote: post #70
jo032 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you are saying is word for word the libertarian argument against the civil rights act ("if we have to bake a cake for gay weddings, what if wants a cake for their child bride!"). I happen to disagree with it as it applies in the real world

>What you are saying is word for word the libertarian argument against the civil rights act ("if we have to bake a cake for gay weddings, what if wants a cake for their child bride!"). I happen to disagree with it as it applies in the real world No. I'm not. Please don't put words in my mouth. I'll try to boil it down to as few words as possible: If the government can take away your rights, then they can take away mi…

again I'm not making a legal argument but a moral one.

>If the government can take away your rights, then they can take away mine too. I don't support that and will defend your rights as vigorously as my own, whether I agree with you or not.

This applies to Stipe and Paypal too. They can arbitrarily prevent anyone from operating an online business. The libertarian view that you should care more about their right to do that than individuals who will lose their livelihoods with no recourse, is something I'll never understand and we'll never come to agreement on.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#123

Post by AYBABTME »

sacks2k wrote: post #26

The people cheering this on will not be protected when the mob comes for you. We live in a digital age. If having the wrong opinion means you can get your bank accounts and all Internet presence removed from you, it's not any different than living under a fascist government.

There's a gradation of things, it's not black or white. The gray zone in the middle is where conditions for society to prosper are.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#124

Post by zionic »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

I’m honestly happy they’re doing this. The harder they grasp, the more users will slip through their fingers.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#125

Post by m8s »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

Stripe isn't preventing the Trump campaign from fundraising. You can feel free to withdraw cash from your bank account and mail it to the Trump campaign. Stripe also isn't prohibiting all Republicans from using Stripe. It seems that the people claiming that this the end of free speech are unaware that demonstrating that freedom of speech can have consequences. In this case, that free speech was arguably inciting an insurrection.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#127

Post by dataflow »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #95

There is a difference between bank accounts, Visa/MasterCard access and Internet service, on one hand, and App Stores, Twitter accounts and payment providers, on the other hand. The First Amendment promises both free speech and free assembly. Core to the latter is the freedom not to assemble. This freedom is regulated. You can’t refuse to do business with protected classes. But political affiliation is not a protecte…

> Stripe and Twitter are pretty clearly the latter.

They might be the latter, but I wouldn't consider it obvious. Regarding social media, we've gotten to the point where even US Visa applications ask for social media handles (and I understand they consider it as a negative datum if you don't provide one). And we're also at the point where some companies won't provide you with respectable service unless you @ them on social media. Regarding payment platforms, generally people expect them to be quite neutral, since getting locked out of the financial system is not exactly going to lead to a great life in the modern digital economy.

I don't know at what point these cross into "utility" territory, and I'm willing to entertain the idea that they might never do so, but I find it quite debatable and very much not clear.

(Note: None of this is to opine on the reactions to this particular incident. Just commenting on the more general idea.)

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#128

Post by crx07 »

awat wrote: post #64

Not to be reductionist but I don’t see this as a totalitarian issue. This is a free market decision. $Company decides to sever ties with another organization. That choice can be good, bad, reactive, overreactive, misguided, etc but it’s still a market participant choice. Market remains open for other market participants to make other choices.

On one hand it feels completely appropriate and even deserved. On the other, yes, this is unfortunately a path to a very serious totalitarian issue. Situations like this one underscore the future importance of cryptocurrencies.

Without an uncensorable currency, any political adversary -- especially an incumbent -- can just coerce payment processors into blocking payments to their opponents through threats of imprisonment or violence against a handful of executives.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#129

Post by Andrew_nenakhov »

bdcravens wrote: post #65
quickthrower2 wrote: post #28

He'll have to start taking cryptocurrency.

He said previously of cryptocurrency: "I am not a fan of Bitcoin and other Cryptocurrencies, which are not money, and whose value is highly volatile and based on thin air. Unregulated Crypto Assets can facilitate unlawful behavior, including drug trade and other illegal activity."

He might have an epiphany, due to his changed circumstances.

Re: Stripe bans Trump campaign

#130

Post by Damorian »

jsmeaton wrote: post #112
Damorian wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This “both sides” nonsense can get in the bin. Point to the leader of a political party that instigated the attack you speak of.

Much the same way Trump didn't say "form a violent mob and attack Congress" yet he's being held accountable for what was comparatively nothing.

"Both sides" doesn't mean all things are equal, just that they're comparable. The BLM riots this Summer were far more deadly and destructive, and the response to them was very different. Violent protests should be denounced by everyone. Period. I cannot figure out when we collectively decided it was fine, so long as it was the "right" side.

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