Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

nytimes.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 179 posts

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#121

Post by j8hn »

heyoni wrote: post #38
eplanit wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, but what's frightening now is that the mob/SJWs are aligned (mostly) with the new administration, whose party has swept up all power in the government.

No one swept up all of the power. It’s insane to say that just because democrats are in control. There’s an entire spectrum of opinions and differences within the party that is being set aside in order to fight for some common beliefs...like ending the war on drugs, the war on the female reproductive system, and the war on education. There’s a baseline among progressives which, once reached, will create entirely new…

"The war on the female reproductive system". I realize you are referring to pro-choice. I'm curious why you chose to phrase it in this way.

What is the war on education?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#123

Post by dragonwriter »

nacho2sweet wrote: post #122

This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. Imagine the stasi had it? You can consider your government good and the technology good until it isn't and used against you.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad.

No, it's not.

> Imagine the stasi had it?

Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#124

Post by dragonwriter »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #82
LatteLazy wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I get why people don't want facial recognition cameras on every street corner but using it to identify people from pics is a different activity... Edit: I completely agree there is nothing special about this case. No exigent circumstances.

> Is it that different to wanted posters or publishing cctv of a crime? I think so. That mechanism is judicially auditable. The AI is not. We should not be arresting people based on the output of an unauditable mechanism.

> That mechanism is judicially auditable. The AI is not. We should not be arresting people based on the output of an unauditable mechanism.

Are we, though? If “ClearView AI gave us a hit” is being treated as probable cause sufficient for an arrest warrant, that's a problem.

If it's being used as a tool to generate leads to investigate and traditional evidence is gathered and presented, I don't see a big problem.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#125

Post by _Understated_ »

dragonwriter wrote: post #123
nacho2sweet wrote: post #122

This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. Imagine the stasi had it? You can consider your government good and the technology good until it isn't and used against you.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. No, it's not. > Imagine the stasi had it? Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

> There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper.

Not sure I agree with that analogy... pen and paper doesn't scale!

Having the ability to do something at global scale, like facial recognition or real-time tracking and saying "Honest! We won't use it for dodgy things" is not sufficient...

It'd be naieve to say I'd rather it didn't exist, however that cat is out of the bag now so there _must_ be incredibly robust and tamper-proof checks and balances round its use and the penalties for subverting that should be incredibly severe.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#126

Post by endominus »

dragonwriter wrote: post #123
nacho2sweet wrote: post #122

This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. Imagine the stasi had it? You can consider your government good and the technology good until it isn't and used against you.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. No, it's not. > Imagine the stasi had it? Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

The point being that the fundamental problem of a police state being the authority granted to the police, rather than the specific tools they use? I do wonder whether tools like this will cause some people to think twice before demonstrating against government policies in the future. AI has the potential to vastly exacerbate the chilling effect of various policies of authoritarians. It will be interesting to see how the next iteration of BLM reacts to these tools being used.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#127

Post by fogihujy »

JMTQp8lwXL wrote: post #74
mmmBacon wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think we already have a system in the West where people are afraid to speak openly; it’s referred to as cancel culture but exists elsewhere. The difference is that it’s not a formal government system but more of a mob social justice system.

Is there any reasonably valid speech that is unduly silenced by cancel culture? I don't disagree that people are restrictive of their speech, but I am trying to ascertain if we are better or worse off due to self-censorship.

That's the problem: we don't know.

I don't have any particularly noteworthy political opinions; most people would probably put me in the "surprisingly ordinary" box if they had to categorize me. Despite that, I wouldn't dream of getting into something like a political discussion on Twitter. It's simply impossible to know whom the mob will go after next, or in 10 or 20 years.

I don't know how many others feel the same way, but I do know there are others out there. There is a non-zero chance that one of us has something really important to say, but won't, because we don't want to face a potential angry online mob in the future.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#128

Post by j8hn »

handmodel wrote: post #103
newguy1234 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How long are we going to lock them up? How many people are we going to lock up? My understanding was that there was 100k+ people in attendance at this rally and thousands of people were in the capitol building itself.

No one is suggesting you arrest those who stayed outside. You arrest however many you can find who blew past doors/security or took stuff. Probably 500. At the next Trump rally of 100k everyone will know not to break the law. It is pretty simple.

I think it's reasonable that people who were involved in actual violence or theft should face consequences.

When you say it's pretty simple, others are calling for everyone on the Capitol grounds to be arrested. Technically they were breaking the law by trespassing.

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#129

Post by hooande »

endominus wrote: post #126
dragonwriter wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is the exact situation in which facial recognition is very bad. No, it's not. > Imagine the stasi had it? Yes, the problem there is the Stasi, not the technology. There is literally no technology that the Stasi having would be a good thing, including pen and paper. Or things so basic we don't tend to think of them as “technology”, like, say, language.

The point being that the fundamental problem of a police state being the authority granted to the police, rather than the specific tools they use? I do wonder whether tools like this will cause some people to think twice before demonstrating against government policies in the future. AI has the potential to vastly exacerbate the chilling effect of various policies of authoritarians. It will be interesting to see how…

facial recognition tools and Clearview AI existed on Wednesday, when people invaded the capitol and then stood around taking selfies for an hour. It's possible that most of them had never heard of facial recognition or didn't realize that it could be used. But I'd be surprised if that were the case.

This technology is here, being used openly today. If has a chilling effect, where is it?

Re: Clearview AI being used to identify Capitol rioters

#130

Post by zo1 »

throwaway346434 wrote: post #101
rychco wrote: post #4

I realize that this is one of those situations where I'm supposed to be supportive of the use of facial recognition, but I'm still uncomfortable. Facial recognition seems like an all or nothing deal to me, and even after the capitol has been raided... I still opt for 'nothing'.

This event is highly comparable to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beer_Hall_Putsch - Attempted coup - Radicalized and misinformed supporters (majority) with an extremist, armed element (minority) - Extremely dangerous moment for free and fair elections in the west What would the world have looked like if in 1923, the disaffected germans who took part in that were identified en masse; and serious efforts were made to r…

Thank you for the info, I never knew about those two events!

> "From 1945 to 1950, the Allied powers detained over 400,000 Germans in internment camps in extrajudicial fashion in the name of denazification."

Post reply on HN