Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment • Hacker News Board

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#121

Post by baybal2 » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

anovikov wrote: post #10

echelon wrote: post #3

If we care at all about our future and the generations to come, we must oppose China at all costs. They extinguish dissent. Not just locally, but abroad. They censor our domestic companies that want a foothold in their market (Disney, Blizzard, the NBA, Apple). We need to stop taking their money, and we need to move manufacturing to Vietnam, India, Mexico, and Africa. Strategic manufacturing (medical and tech) needs…

Thing is, U.S. and all of the civilised world does not have enough resources for a cold war with China. It will be simply defeated the way Soviet Union was defeated - just run out of money and overall steam. It's time to adapt to Chinese leadership and extract benefits of democracy and freedom which they don't have. Too late to keep trying to oppose it. Example: Chinese military shipbuilding delivers more tonnage per…

> Maoism is linked to the traits of Chinese national character

A virulent strain of communism, a disease that plagued Europe for close to a century, and even managed to put up roots of its more violent forms in the New World.

You say Maoisim-Communism is only a Chinese problem?

Not convincing at all.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#122

Post by arcticbull » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:13 PM UTC

MrRiddle wrote: post #119

arcticbull wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s not how international obligations work. Most borders were defined at gunpoint but we generally don’t allow for arbitrary redefinition when the loser gets uppity, Crimea aside.

That's exactly how international obligations work.

Any others you want to revisit? Maybe the treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo? How about 1812? Should America get to annex Canada? America did lose the war of 1812 after all!

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#123

Post by bobthebuilders » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #108

z5h wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is A LITTLE BIT political. And we reserve the right on when to focus on the political or non political aspect. My pancake breakfast has ties to unions, lobbyists, international trade. Guess what, I’m just going to eat my pancakes.

"Everything is A LITTLE BIT political." This is called minimizing/minimization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minimisation_(psychology) https://counsellingresource.com/features/2009/02/23/minimiza...

You are just doing maximization instead.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#124

Post by joreilly » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:14 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #116

joreilly wrote: post #109

If anyone is looking for a relatively digestible book on China, I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. While he does tend to meander at some points, it gives a solid introduction to China's recent history (arrival of the British, the civil war, up to around 2010) and interactions with the United States throughout. At least, to someone who initially had very little knowledge on the topic. [1]:…

> I can wholeheartedly recommend On China by Henry Kissinger [1]. I will wholeheartedly not recommend anybody to read Kissinger. The man has completely imaginary idea of what China is, and even more so about its leadership. I can only lament at the fact that now multiple generations of Western politicians, and diplomats were grown upon his coolaid.

I'm assuming you're referring to how softly he tip-toes around events like the Tiananmen Square Protests or the massive famine during the Great Leap Forward? If so, I certainly agree with you and many of the Goodreads reviewers in that his approach could be considered overly diplomatic. If anything, I think knowing the weaknesses of the book in advance is advantageous for weighing what Kissinger says throughout. If not, I'm curious to know your thoughts. My knowledge on China is limited to discussions with family friends who have some experience through their work, and this book, so I would not be surprised to know that I am severely lacking.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#125

Post by thepasswordis » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:15 PM UTC

ceejayoz wrote: post #96

thepasswordis wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US president has said that he will use the full power of the government to track down and prosecute everybody involved in the capitol riot. I'd link you to the video of him saying this, but Twitter deleted it so I can't.

Sure, and the blinky Vietnam POWs talking about their wonderful humane treatment just had a bunch of dust in their eyes. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/08/us/politics/democrats-tru... > Behind closed doors, he made clear that he would not resign and expressed regret about releasing a video on Thursday committing to a peaceful transition of power and condemning the violence at the Capitol that he had egged on a day b…

People who were at the Capitol have already started being picked off the streets by police. Many of the more prominent people have already been arrested, and there are large scale efforts to identify the rest.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#126

Post by dragonsh » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:16 PM UTC

loceng wrote: post #97

ceilingcorner wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember seeing them waving American flags during protests, presumably as a reference to liberty. I thought, “I wish we lived up to their perceptions of us.”

Of course the CCP used those photos as propaganda to reenforce the arguably false narrative presented to mainland Chinese that the CIA was behind the resistance. The psychological aspect of warfare never ceases to amaze me.

Not everything is a propaganda there is some truth to it, given Hong Kong is the only ground left for US to try to destabilise China to slow its growth.

This is also the reason China took hardline on Hong Kong as they see it as strategic weak spot. Moreover actions of China in Hong Kong are supported by majority of people in China. This tyranny of majority exists in democracy too, what happened in Kashmir is 100 times worse than HK.

Given the way US president pardoned people who committed genocide in Afganistan and killed scores of kids and unarmed civilians. There is hardly any ground left for them to teach others.

No real death in over an year of violent protests by police firing in Hong Kong vs 5 deaths in capitol building siege speaks volumes about the professionalism with which Hong Kong police handled the protests.

China is built by hard work of its people not by CCP [1].

May be work there for a while and than you can see why Korea, Japan and Greater China did so well not others in growth. It’s easy to talk rhetoric, but hard to do hard work to bring about transformation.

[1] https://danwang.co/2020-letter/

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#127

Post by CogitoCogito » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:19 PM UTC

knolax wrote: post #113

CogitoCogito wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Counterpoint. Everyone I meet in San Francisco is against colonialism. > Have you considered that Hong Kong is part of China, was taken as a colony, Democracy was introduced and by supporting a different system of government, in a country that isn't yours, is a form of internalized colonialism? > Our country is literally falling apart. > Our biggest problem in the west is our tendency to export our problems. China…

> People have this idea that an enormous unified China is somehow natural. The linguistic variation of Chinese is larger than the romance languages today. China being some unified country speaking Mandarin is about as natural as Rome coming back today and enforcing Italian on all its previous empire. More drivel by someone who likely can't speak or read any dialect of Chinese and has no idea of history. Rome has been…

> You don't have a point and the claims you've made are egregiously wrong. Here's a hint, 1967 >>>>> 365.

You literally didn't contradict anything I said linguistically or culturally (i.e. that China is _not_ some singular linguistical/cultural area), which was my point. So no I _do_ have a point and you yourself agreed with it.

You made another point that the fact that China was unified more recently as an empire than Rome means they are somehow more legitimate. If that's your point, okay I understand your thinking. I don't agree with it (by that reasoning the British have a claim on a lot of the world's territory), but okay then that is your thinking.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#128

Post by anovikov » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #121

anovikov wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thing is, U.S. and all of the civilised world does not have enough resources for a cold war with China. It will be simply defeated the way Soviet Union was defeated - just run out of money and overall steam. It's time to adapt to Chinese leadership and extract benefits of democracy and freedom which they don't have. Too late to keep trying to oppose it. Example: Chinese military shipbuilding delivers more tonnage per…

> Maoism is linked to the traits of Chinese national character A virulent strain of communism, a disease that plagued Europe for close to a century, and even managed to put up roots of its more violent forms in the New World. You say Maoisim-Communism is only a Chinese problem? Not convincing at all.

Soviet Communism (Bolshevism) WAS a virulent strain: millions upon millions of even comfortably living people in developed countries wholeheartedly believed in it, and developing world submitted to it without a second thought. Soviets did not take Africa by force in 1960s - they didn't have nearly enough long range force projection capability - they made Africans want communism. Same in Southeast Asia.

Maoism is nothing like that. It is despised by everyone including China's closest neighbours both culturally and geographically - even by Vietnamese who are sort of Commies themselves. Vietnam is willing to ally with the U.S. - who it lost millions of people fighting with 50 years who and who's completely opposite to it ideologically on paper - only to avoid Chinese bullying.

But, it seems to be a good way of government for China. It works there. Nothing at all worked in China in the previous 150 years of trying, nothing else allowed to marry industrial civilisation and Chinese national character. KMT figured an alternative but only when they were already stuck to Taiwan, and only with the massive U.S. aid (which would be insufficient for Chinese mainland even under best assumptions), and only because most of Taiwanese are part Japanese and their culture had a strong Japanese influence.

Ofc, Dick Nixon also helped a lot.

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#129

Post by 411111111111111 » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

baybal2 wrote: post #100

mantap wrote: post #13

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

> The west needs to sanction China. Do you understand that the West mostly sanctions itself when it tries to sanction a country which: 1. Has surreal trade surplus with it. 2. Supports nearly entire consumer spending part of your economy. 3. Provides most of your light industry goods. 4. Buys a big chunk of your debt. This is why I was saying that China can easily do a blunder, after a blunder, and still outmatch the…

Isn't the point of sanctions to make the offending product so expensive that other options become more viable?

They would've to be hard enough to make it more cost effective to create a new production line in another nation over buying the sanctioned goods.

Not without consequences for the consumer and political suicide if attempted... but technically possible

Re: Arrests of Hong Kong democrats shows why EU must reject China investment

#130

Post by koonsolo » Sat, Jan 09, 2021, 4:27 PM UTC

throwaway93388 wrote: post #24

mantap wrote: post #13

The west needs to sanction China. This is violation of China's treaty obligations, it's not just a domestic issue, it's an international law issue, and it should have international consequences.

> This is violation of China's treaty obligations Maybe it's time to de-colonise Hong Kong and just give it back to the Chinese properly? It's not our business how they conduct their internal affairs.

First of all, you seem to be talking about the PRC and not Chinese. All of us would gladly take China away from the CCP dictatorship, and give it to the Chinese people as a true democracy.

Secondly, here is such a thing as human rights, and westerners believe that such a thing is worldwide. We should not close our eyes to the wrongdoing that is done to our fellow human beings.