How much math you need for programming (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#121

Post by PaulKeeble » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

z3t4 wrote: post #78

When working with CSS/design I used subtraction, multiplication and division. When working with e-commerce/finance I used algebra. When making a 2d game I used geometry. When making a 3d engine I needed to learn about vector, matrices, etc. When working with weather forecasting there where formulas involving sin,cos,atan etc. So while you do not need math to get started in programming/development, you will definitely…

It definitely depends on the work you are doing. When working in aerospace I used maths a lot, 3D vector work as well as physics like velocity, acceleration, gravity simulations etc were all pretty important. I have also had roles where I suspect I never used much beyond basic addition and multiplication. But if your maths isn't there you are not going to be getting roles that are heavy on the fundamental maths problems.

It is the same with algorithms. Some times a role is utilising the basics all the time and you rarely get passed some DB access, lists and maps. In others I have needed to build a Type 2 ary tree with lockless parallel access. I think what ends up happening is that most projects have some tough stuff and some have a lot more of it but you can contribute to those projects without knowing how to solve it because the bulk of most programming is fairly simple. But that deeper knowledge is needed by at least someone on the team at some point in time.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#122

Post by no_wizard » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:06 PM UTC

I know the question posed here has nuances (the question of the title of the blog post as well as its contents as it tries to answer.

Here’s a simple truth I’ve found about it though:

It’s more than you think, but less than advertised in the end.

A lot of the most complex mathematics is abstracted away from the average or even maybe not so average developer.

This I would say is a loose guideline more than a rule of course, there are exceptions

I will say though that what I have learned is that a typical thing we need to be better at as developers (myself included) is math related to date/time and currency. These are actually quite complex problems that even the best developers get wrong

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#123

Post by concreteblock » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:12 PM UTC

username90 wrote: post #88

mkl wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Numbers don't exist in any real sense, so we're clearly not talking about the actual physical universe. The universes we're talking about are the spaces of possibilities that arise from sets of rules. Examples include number systems and physics models built on them. Newtonian physics, built on Euclidean space; Einsteinian physics, built on space distorted by mass; quantum circuits, where modular arithmetic can show u…

> Numbers don't exist in any real sense I'd argue they do, numbers arise when counting and counting is definitely a part of our reality. It is pretty hard to imagine a universe where you can't count things.

That's because (imo) numbers aren't intrinsic to the physical universe. They are (imo) an abstraction we humans invented to describe certain phenomena. You may not agree but hopefully you can at least see why some people would have this PoV, and especially the more general PoV that mathematics is not about (physical) nature, but about abstract ideas.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#124

Post by ajarmst » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:13 PM UTC

As usual, the answer to the eternal question of “how much formal math training do you need for X” turns out to be “right around the amount the author of the argument has had.” Why is it that we always have to prove the instrumental value of maths education? You’re a lot more likely to “need” your maths in the “real world” than your Shakespeare, but few have much energy for fighting the idea that literature should be studied for it’s own sake. Wondering about the minimum amount of effort required for success is more valuable for its insights into whether this is something you should pursue than for any answer you could find.

So here’s what I should think is the obvious answer: No, significant formal or informal maths training is neither necessary nor sufficient for a successful or even exemplary career as a programmer. But talent and success in the two do seem to correlate pretty strongly, and those who do have above average backgrounds in maths seem to feel it’s beneficial and provides an advantage. No, you don’t need maths any more than you need strong writing skills or comfort teaching or experience with office politics or a sophisticated sense of humour. Those are all, however, astonishingly useful in getting the things you want, even if that’s only a richer experience of life.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#125

Post by jkaptur » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:20 PM UTC

ajarmst wrote: post #124

As usual, the answer to the eternal question of “how much formal math training do you need for X” turns out to be “right around the amount the author of the argument has had.” Why is it that we always have to prove the instrumental value of maths education? You’re a lot more likely to “need” your maths in the “real world” than your Shakespeare, but few have much energy for fighting the idea that literature should be…

I agree with everything you’ve said, but I want to push back on the (non-load-bearing) “few have much energy for fighting the idea that literature should be studied for it’s own sake.”

It seems to me that lots of people have endless energy for this fight, unfortunately.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#126

Post by godelski » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:22 PM UTC

enriquto wrote: post #27

The question seems a bit backwards to me (who come to programming from maths). I am more familiar with the opposite question "how much, if any, programming do you need for math?" Every year I meet lots of math students who love math but hate the very idea of programming, as if it was a dirty and unnoble thing to do. I have to convince them that sometimes it may be useful for them. The best course of action is to star…

Having come from the science I think you have a good viewpoint. We didn't learn programming to program. We learned it because it is a useful tool to model and stimulate. A necessity to do science in the modem world. It was only later that I started to dig in more because I found that I actually liked using this tool.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#127

Post by bmj » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #24

You need all the math for the domain. If you are in engineering, games, DSP, ML, then that can be a lot . At the same time some developers can go a whole career without ever (knowingly) using a floating point number. They work with web sites/services/databases/apis etc. But developers should at least know basic calculus, logic, and what what you need to grok basic algorithms and data structures. That part of math isn…

How much English do I need for writing?

That would depend on what sort of writer you were and what sort of ideas you are trying to share (and, I guess, your audience). Most famously, Hemingway's The Old Man and the Sea is written in a such a way that an 12 year old could read it and understand the plot.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#128

Post by CtrlD-me » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:25 PM UTC

ensiferum wrote: post #30

CtrlD-me wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. To me programming is a subset of mathematics. You are right it is not math, but its origins are definitely mathematical. There was Alan Turing who built the first computer to decifer nazi communications. But the axis too used "programming", by calculating optimization algorithms to determine rocket trajectories... Of course there is more too it, but an understanding of mathematics is good for any programmer.

Yes I agree with you but I like to make the distinction between computer science and "programming". I.e the study of computer programs and algorithms is absolutely based on math but most of every day programming isn't really focused on that. As in when you write your business logic or UI code or whatever there's not that much math per se related to the software itself more just the domain math if any.

Yea I'd agree with that too.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#129

Post by smonff » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:26 PM UTC

You basically need almost no maths knowledge to learn programming. This is the first thing the person that trained me told us. Especially for fields like web development and stuff. Sure, if you need to send rockets to mars, it's not the same.

With 12 years of experience, I would say this is true. I would even say that my fucked up logic makes me a very good debugger.

Re: How much math you need for programming (2014)

#130

Post by pyfan878 » Sat, Dec 26, 2020, 6:31 PM UTC

slightly off topic but do you have some resources that explain maths in simple language, or using visualisation and code samples? Although I had calculus, linear algebra, probability theory, and discrete maths at uni, I have forgotten most of it. This sucks especially because from time to time I bump into a problem that could easily be modelled elegantly using math.