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UX Issues with Notion

telegra.ph

121–130 of 160 posts

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#121
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Performance is taken into account when it matters for the product, you'll notice this in games where they do a lot of perf improvement work. I think most development shops chronically underestimate how much application performance matters for sales. Most people will never file bug reports when software is slow. They just "won't like that program for some reason". (Or worse, misattribute the reason they don't like y…

I work in improving performance at a big tech company. It can be like dragging feet to get executives, managers and developers to care about improving performance because incentives are misaligned and it's frankly a chore compared to the million other things you have to be doing. It's also significantly harder to show the business metric improvement that comes from performance improvements than it does from simple A/…

Fair enough; thanks for taking the time to chat about this. I'm not sure I agree, but I appreciate your perspective and experience.

For all that you've said, I still strongly suspect that a standalone rust / swift compiler designed for speed above all else could achieve many times the performance of the current LLVM based designs. The resulting binaries might need to lean heavily on dynamic dispatch over monomorphization to achieve that - but during development thats a tradeoff I'd take just about every time. The common factor in swift and rust is llvm - both using it for codegen and having the compiler think about the program in terms of llvm constructs. The fastest compilers I know about - V8, LuaJIT, Go, Jai(?) are designed with both performance and the target language in mind, and (I assume) don't translate the code through a series of complex intermediate representations internally. And you're right - none of those languages do complex template specialization.

Also its probably no coincidence that maybe except for V8 all of those compilers were designed by a single expert mind, not a huge team spanning multiple companies. As you point out, large scale refactoring (required for top tier performance) gets increasingly difficult as team & code size increases. The reasons are partially political ("your commit conflicts with how much??"), and partially because it gets super difficult for any one mind to conceive of the whole program at once when it has so much code and so many authors. Let alone do large scale refactoring.

I don't know if its true but I heard the chrome team started with just a dozen or so very senior engineers who all had experience with webkit. Before they brought anyone else onto the team, they spent months iterating together on the internal design of the browser engine until they were happy with it. They did it that way because they figured it would be basically impossible to change the core down the road once they had a larger team hacking on it.

> Why are these languages using features such as type inference, stricter and more complicated type systems along with heavy templating? It's because now ... these features become viable in the compilers of today vs. the compilers of yesterday.

Maybe. I think we also just got better at designing languages. Rust's trait system seems both simpler and better than C++'s classes + templates. Traits would have been just as viable in a compiler decades ago, but OO was trendy and we didn't know any better.

> just because you like something, it doesn't mean most people like it

Oh, I know! I've spent enough time working on teams building websites to know I'm not the average bear. But I don't think its because performance work is fundamentally uninteresting. I think its because most engineers working on websites don't have enough raw CS skill to comfortably step into the performance arena.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#122
post #90
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Notion is a not a good tool to create a knowledge base, the same way Google drive is a not a good tool to create a knowledge base. If you think a bit more, notion is more or less a Google drive with smileys. Which is not a critic.

What have you found is a good tool to create a knowledge base, at a small to medium sized company?

I've seen good use with Slab

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#123
post #92

I tried writing one of these laundry lists of how screwy and frustrating Notion's UX is, from the information architecture (mixing page, project, account, and presentation options) to the writing experience/feel to the weird block-centricity... and I just gave up in frustration. The conclusion I came to is if you're going to remake and extend the word processor, you must take the lessons of the last 40 years to heart…

(I work at Notion)

We didn’t conclude anything as a validation of our UX - there is nothing in Notion that we consider “ideal” or even “finished”; we are painfully aware of how far we still have to go. There is just a lot of work to do for our small (but growing!) team.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#124

I have been using Notion for 3-4 years now. There is nothing better IMO. It is slow at times, it has a lot of its power hidden behind the "/", and it's not very helpful of you need advanced governance (like locking multiple pages easily). But it is great in any other way, personally I am waiting for the API and table grouping features to make it really great, and I could stop using aitrable.

(Notion give me table grouping please!!)

I miss board grouping from JIRA

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#125
post #100

I had to stop reading after the first three bullet points. Maybe the rest is reasonable, but first... When sharing to colleagues you get to choose if you allow them to edit/comment/view. That, to be honest, is the first thing I check when I share docs (be it Google Docs, Quip or Notion). I won't rely on the defaults of the software because it's too costly to not get it right. Second, you don't have to lock the docume…

OP does not want to disallow their colleagues from a editing a page altogether. They want to prevent accidental edits.

I think it's apparent that OP wants to disallow editing but allow commenting (see quotes down below). Notion provides exactly this feature when you share a doc but OP seems to have missed it and instead uses "lock a document" to do what he wants, which created all the problems in the first two sections. This feature is easy to find and is similar to what Google docs offers and so fairly learnable.

> First thing you learn when getting used to Notion is that every page you share should be locked from editing!

> The next problem with edit lock is that you can't unlock the page just for you. So you are a good user of Notion and keep all pages locked from editing. But every time you want to modify a page, you unlock it and everyone can (unintentionally) modify it while you're editing.

> Adding or editing content isn't the only case when you need your page to be unlocked. It is impossible to add comments on locked page.

^^^ These quotes are all wrong. You don't lock your document. When you share a doc, configure the access rights (edit/comment/view only, similar to what you do when sharing a Google doc).

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#126
post #48
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It definitely depends on the purpose of the document. But I do find that people who are not experienced with notion will accidentally edit anything and everything that isn't locked if you share it with them. In an organization where one team is using notion and is using it to share docs to others that haven't gotten used to it yet, or where you constantly have new team members encountering it for the first time, lock…

This is good feedback! Thank you.

Do you really need to "lock" it as in OP? When you share you get the option to choose whether the person being shared can edit, comment or duplicate. If you disallow sharee editing, you can still edit your document.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#127

Love Notion, but the sidebar navigation issue kills me! Notion forces a refresh to update all the time and it collapses all navigation trees. Also hate the favicon changing since I have notes about third parties and I set the page icon to the logo of the third party.

This bothers me a lot too. Notion refreshes on the next navigation after we deploy an update. We constantly deploy our internal dog food environment - so for me this happens constantly throughout the day. We should try to persist sidebar state like we do for toggle list expand/collapse inside the page.

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#128
post #120
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Typing slash ( / ), for any reason apparently, and in any context, pops up the Basic Blocks selection window. If you type, for example, "10 / 2 = 5", or perhaps "a/b testing", or any other very common valid use of the slash symbol, you are left with that stupid popup on the screen. You have to hit ESC to close it. Pity the fool who has a touchbar Mac. And if for some reason you wanted to end your line with a slash,…

The slash handler is surely part of the cause of the higher typing latency compared to nearly every other program I use. I know of no other app which does what they do. Other apps do things like cmd-space (spotlight, which I use ALL the time), ctrl-space (which I have mapped instead of ctrl-b in tmux), shift-shift, which opens search in JetBrains IDEs, etc. Notion could have made cmd or ctrl-/ open that menu at the c…

(I work at Notion)

One of the apps you cited, JetBrains IDEs, provide extensive predictive hints and documentation in menus that automatically open after any character is typed. I think the difference between the Notion predictive menus and the JetBrain ones is an issue of performance, rather than concept.

That isn’t to say the slash menu isn’t annoying - we have a lot of work to do!

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#129
post #95
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This comment is the only one I've read about Notion that I've agreed with. Maybe it's because it was over hyped and other people didn't already have a system in place to compare to or something? I really tried to like Notion but I found it just slowed me down -- as in actually delayed what I was doing with lag and silly things like trying to be clever as you say, not just the learning curve I'm now trying out Obsidia…

If you'll allow me to rant a bit about Obsidian, its never going to be a mainstream competitor to Notion because it's file-based. For modern tools like Notion, Airtable, etc the filesystem is just a fallback option for piping data around when other more direct methods do not exist. Modern tools are database-driven, supporting multiple data types (images, text, tables, etc), different editing UIs for different content…

For context I should have mentioned this is for my solo use only. I have no idea how or if this setup would work if multiple people were editing.

My go to for a team would be good old wiki software of some sort (probably dokuwiki)

Re: UX Issues with Notion

#130
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP does not want to disallow their colleagues from a editing a page altogether. They want to prevent accidental edits.

I think it's apparent that OP wants to disallow editing but allow commenting (see quotes down below). Notion provides exactly this feature when you share a doc but OP seems to have missed it and instead uses "lock a document" to do what he wants, which created all the problems in the first two sections. This feature is easy to find and is similar to what Google docs offers and so fairly learnable. > First thing you l…

No, I don't want do disallow editing. I do want to allow it but protect the content from accidental edits. Every time I publish a Notion page and forget to lock it, it is being accidentally modified. Some people notice it and undo. Some don't. In the combination with useless page history it is very difficult to reason whether the edit was accidental. The page could remain in accidentally modified state for a long time until author notices it.
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