How neutering dogs became the norm • Hacker News Board

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#121

Post by jonahrd » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:20 AM UTC

This article glosses over the historical mistreatment of dogs where millions were killed yearly, and then cherry picks and details a bunch of examples of Bad Things happening to dogs nowadays.

It ignores all the benefits of neutering just to make a point.

Also, my dog is neutered, and is not aggressive at all, EXCEPT towards un-neutered dogs. Where I live it's illegal to bring an un-neutered dog to the dog park, but some people do. When that happens I don't make a fuss about it, but I do leave the dog park early. So when I'm asking an owner of their dog is neutered it's not because I am pushing some bad societal norm, it's because I'm trying to prevent a preventable incident.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#122

Post by projektfu » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:22 AM UTC

nbadg wrote: post #109

Talanes wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The inference is obvious, I assume the poster is looking for actual data.

I want to preface this by saying: veterinary science is just that, a science. Your vet has spent their career, hopefully anyways, learning what the best veterinary minds know about veterinary medicine. And your vet is probably a whole lot more trustworthy than random comments on the internet like this one. But with that said, I agree completely with the above: citation sorely needed. Show me the data. One of the firs…

The going joke is that everything we know was true for 8 beagles. Veterinary studies are often small in scale and not made of representatives of the whole population.

I don't feel like digging through PubMed to back up an assertion like "unneutered dogs are more likely to roam and get hit by car." At best I'll be able to give you a records-review type of study and it's a low quality of evidence. Also, trends don't mean that your specific animal is going to be the same. I work with an unneutered labrador patient who is never going to get hit by a car, and I have definitely treated neutered ones who have. This association, though, does have a basis in animal behavior and is familiar to vets who work in emergency rooms.

The level of evidence that suggests that neutering is positively associated with cancer is extremely poor. Yet, there are people running with it like it's 100%. Meanwhile, we have stronger evidence that spaying prevents mammary cancer and castration prevents testicular cancer.

Good on you for jogging with your dog. Be mindful of their limits, because they will hide pain. Keep them in athletic trim and you should be fine, in my opinion.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#123

Post by projektfu » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:24 AM UTC

perardi wrote: post #84

realsimplesynd wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 6. All bitches bleed during proestrus. The word “bitch” has changed so much in cultural meaning during the last 50 years or so that somehow it feels more offensive to call a female dog a “bitch” then a human. How is “bitch” used in veterinary hospitals?

It’s still used extensively by breeders, including what amounts to the highest authority, the American Kennel Club. https://www.akc.org/expert-advice/dog-breeding/choosing-a-br...

I can't respond to the GP directly, but it is a very normal word in veterinary medicine when talking about a reproductive-age female dog.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#124

Post by etempleton » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:25 AM UTC

gumby wrote: post #49

ambivalents wrote: post #9

I'm faced with this decision now, and am leaning towards not neutering my pup. At the very least, I'll be waiting until he's one year old, when most of his sexual development has wound down. The vets I've been to have both encouraged I do it, at 6 months and at 9 months. And they have the financial incentive to do so. The whole practice feels archaic and somewhat cruel. I understand why people do it, but I wonder how…

Breed affects this. We have large dogs (Irish Wolfhound and Great Dane) and it’s recommended not to neuter until the bone plates have fused — about 23 months. So I waited and did it pretty much as soon as possible. Smaller dogs can supposedly be done sooner. Vets will neuter cats at six weeks which seems incredibly young, but “it’s fine”. As far as I can tell there isn’t much actual science on this. In my experience…

I have a 115 pound mixed breed dog that is unneutered. When it became clear he was going to be big it was recommended we hold off on neutering to improve his chances of having healthy joints later in life.

He has an excellent disposition and has never displayed aggression to people or other pet, so we decided neutering wasn’t going to be needed and our vet supported that decision. An added benefit for larger dogs is they tend to regulate their body weight better when unneutered. Again, good for long term join health.

I have noticed that other dogs are aggressive towards him. I have wondered if this has to do with him being unneutered and his size. He has been attacked quite a few times by other dogs. He tends turn his back and not fight back initially and then, if the attack continues, turns to face and give a low growl and warning snap. That usually ends it and the other dog calms down and acts friendly.

I find often the owners of the attacking dog fall into one of two categories and neutering usually doesn’t have much to do with it.

1. The owner is afraid. They are afraid to lose control of their dog. They have no confidence that they can control the dog and panic when the dog misbehaves.

2. The owner yells at and then hits their dog after the dog attacks my dog.

Some dogs are going to be naturally more aggressive, but, like people, environment and proper socializing when young tends to have an outweighted effect on how aggressive or not a dog is.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#125

Post by hansvm » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:26 AM UTC

leetcrew wrote: post #27

chadlavi wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very common in NYC, at least among properties that target lower/lower-middle class incomes. Which is a real shame, honestly, because cats are almost always ok, and they're much more likely to make huge messes and actually damage finishes by clawing.

if damage is a concern, this can always be handled with an additional fee/deposit. cats are much less likely to disturb or threaten the other tenants, which is probably why they get more leeway.

I've always found the additional fee/deposit a little odd. A flat fee feels like a money grab (if no damage would be done then the fee wasn't needed, and if damage would be done then a deposit would cover it), and the deposit is already more than sufficient to cover scratched floors from dirt being ground in by chairs or other non-pet sources.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#126

Post by hansvm » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:31 AM UTC

anonAndOn wrote: post #14

neolog wrote: post #3

Are there any places where dogs are not allowed as pets?

Yes, plenty of rental properties in the US prohibit pets.* *Service animals are often excepted, by law.

I like the way that's phrased -- it's the law to allow service animals, but they're only often allowed. Landlords have a lot of power, especially over anyone living paycheck to paycheck, and some of them will knowingly break laws if they think you're unable to fight back.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#127

Post by dllthomas » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:31 AM UTC

egypturnash wrote: post #105

simonblack wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no mention of Bob Barker Pseudonym, or one of the famous people following their names. I used to know a Doctor Blood, for instance.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bob_Barker His main job was "game show host". He just started using his immensely popular show "The Price Is Right" as a platform for a small "hey get your pets spayed/neutered" announcement at the end of every episode.

Game show host is arguably related to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barker_(occupation)

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#128

Post by gumby » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:35 AM UTC

etempleton wrote: post #124

gumby wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Breed affects this. We have large dogs (Irish Wolfhound and Great Dane) and it’s recommended not to neuter until the bone plates have fused — about 23 months. So I waited and did it pretty much as soon as possible. Smaller dogs can supposedly be done sooner. Vets will neuter cats at six weeks which seems incredibly young, but “it’s fine”. As far as I can tell there isn’t much actual science on this. In my experience…

I have a 115 pound mixed breed dog that is unneutered. When it became clear he was going to be big it was recommended we hold off on neutering to improve his chances of having healthy joints later in life. He has an excellent disposition and has never displayed aggression to people or other pet, so we decided neutering wasn’t going to be needed and our vet supported that decision. An added benefit for larger dogs is…

I remember the IWH receiving more aggression pre neutering. His weight never exceeded 140 lbs but he was unusually tall.

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#129

Post by in_cahoots » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:43 AM UTC

jonahrd wrote: post #121

This article glosses over the historical mistreatment of dogs where millions were killed yearly, and then cherry picks and details a bunch of examples of Bad Things happening to dogs nowadays. It ignores all the benefits of neutering just to make a point. Also, my dog is neutered, and is not aggressive at all, EXCEPT towards un-neutered dogs. Where I live it's illegal to bring an un-neutered dog to the dog park, but…

Could this be a nature vs. nurture case? I don’t have much experience with dogs, but is it possible that the people who don’t neuter their dogs raise them differently?

In my social circle at least, neutering your dog is the social norm. If you don’t, and then break the law to take your dog to the park, most people would say you’re acting irresponsibly. Perhaps these sort of people aren’t compelled to train their dogs properly?

Or to be more charitable, since intact dogs can’t go to socialization classes, is it any wonder that they are aggressive?

Re: How neutering dogs became the norm

#130

Post by h2odragon » Wed, Dec 23, 2020, 3:48 AM UTC

sn_master wrote: post #55

bpodgursky wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The weaker version of this argument which is less likely to be downvoted is, "A huge fraction of the pit bulls which are currently in shelters are not compatible with most homes who want to adopt dogs" Pit bulls, whether or not they are inherently aggressive (and let's be honest, you get more aggressive pit bulls than Golden Retrievers), can do a HUGE amount of damage when they are. Adopting a dog which can't be trus…

And pitbulls are stronger than the average human adult. Many of those videos show strong adults, sometimes multiple of them, and they can't overtake a single angry pitbull even when using blunt objects to hit it. Multiple children get mauled and killed by pitbulls every single month in the US alone. From the reported data, pitbulls are statistically more dangerous than any other breed. An angry small dog can only do…

Pitbulls are "especially bad" in a fight because they don't react to pain the way most dogs do (often, it does vary in individual dogs). They know something hurts but it's not a reason to stop doing what they wanted. The ones I've known often overcompensated for that, once they figure it out in puppyhood, and were especially gentle and considerate.

I had a bluetick / border collie hound that had the same oblivious reaction to pain; she got tangled in an electric fence once and chewed the wire through before i realized what was happening. Then went on to catch her rabbit.