Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#121

Post by yodsanklai » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:18 PM UTC

flobosg wrote: post #14

chrisseaton wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. Can't you go into industry? You'll have a PhD + more papers done along the way in your postdoc.

Yes, of course one can do that and it’s probably the most reasonable strategy (as opposed to another postdoc, for example). But then, what was the point of the postdoc? I’d rather move earlier into industry. It’s ultimately a gamble.

the point of the post doc is to give you additional chances to get an academic positions, it's also an opportunity to work on cool projects, and experience a different culture if you do it abroad.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#122

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:19 PM UTC

dendodge wrote: post #114

physicsguy wrote: post #88

For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc. By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me. I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surpr…

I'm finishing my PhD in the next couple of months, and am fortunate enough to have a fiancée and a house. I interviewed for one postdoc and found myself hoping I wouldn't get it because it would mean living apart for a few years, or else uprooting our lives and moving across the country, only to repeat the process in a few years' time, with no guarantee of ever finding a permanent position. I'm completely lost now, I…

[deleted]

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#123

Post by jcfrei » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:25 PM UTC

marmaduke wrote: post #81

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health? I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps…

This seems to be a common misconception that the slow progress in politics (whatever that means depends on your own political compass) is purely due to the lackluster presentation and evidence finding for policy changes. If the past years have shown anything it's that preconceived notions and ideologies are very hard to change even in the face of overwhelming evidence.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#124

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:35 PM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #119

A long time ago the best talent from PhD programs tended to stay in academia. That was considered the “prize.” Over the last 15 years or so the tables have really turned. Not saying top people don’t stay, but I now see much if not most of the top talent continuing their careers in the private sector or elsewhere. We’re in an era where the most cutting edge and impactful research increasingly does not take place at ac…

That's a bit biased. I could argue the other extreme by highlighting the quest for truth aspect in academia, the freedom from market influence and safety to pursue wherever the interesting research takes you etc.

Contrast that with working at an adtech giant to increase measurable engagement by applying some amazing $&@! that make users addicted and miserable, your workers burned out and the upper classes even richer. Or work on some prototype that never gets in the hands of users, either because it's just a PR stunt pet project for a higher-up or it gets killed off for internal company politics reasons.

You can pick your narrative by picking which academic and industry position to focus on. You can do awesome stuff at both and be miserable at both.

The top of the top usually do both at the same time. They spend part time at a top university, but also advise top companies with top research groups.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#125

Post by walleeee » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:36 PM UTC

sweezyjeezy wrote: post #89

marmaduke wrote: post #81

I’m a staff scientist and watch post docs and students get ground up into grant fodder in a regular basis. Sure there are discoveries but at what cost to our mental health? I think there are two politically convenient roles to academia: (1) allow a country to posture about money is has to spend, case in point are EU flagships which everyone agrees is a big waste but it puts EU on the map, research wise. (2) it keeps…

I don't buy (2) at all. a) I don't think the overlap between postdocs (especially STEM) and those that would work in politics is all that high. I think the vast majority would be working in tech/industry. b) if this were true we might expect republicans to support government funding for academia over democrats, and the opposite is true.

I don't think the claim in 2) is that they'd necessarily be in politics. It's that they might be way more productive than incentive structures currently permit.

The academy can encourage social climbing, pointless competition, and careerism to the detriment of intellectual honesty, sane policy, and good science. Academic institutions can be moral mazes just like other public or private organizations.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#126

Post by ichbinwiederda » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:41 PM UTC

code4tee wrote: post #119

A long time ago the best talent from PhD programs tended to stay in academia. That was considered the “prize.” Over the last 15 years or so the tables have really turned. Not saying top people don’t stay, but I now see much if not most of the top talent continuing their careers in the private sector or elsewhere. We’re in an era where the most cutting edge and impactful research increasingly does not take place at ac…

You are confounding two things. The impact of research and the impact of the researcher. Increasingly more research is done in publicly funded academia, not the opposite at you claim. OTOH the relative impact of individual researchers has gone down, but this is mostly due to problems being tackled being increasingly harder. In industry you can have relatively more impact because you are not doing research but you are building things using knowledge somebody has already collected for you. Maybe that is what you wanted to say.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#127

Post by bonoboTP » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:50 PM UTC

dendodge wrote: post #114

physicsguy wrote: post #88

For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc. By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me. I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surpr…

I'm finishing my PhD in the next couple of months, and am fortunate enough to have a fiancée and a house. I interviewed for one postdoc and found myself hoping I wouldn't get it because it would mean living apart for a few years, or else uprooting our lives and moving across the country, only to repeat the process in a few years' time, with no guarantee of ever finding a permanent position. I'm completely lost now, I…

On the other hand how can you become an experienced researcher if you just work in your own bubble? By spending time in other places, you see different ways of working, thinking, organization, approach to problems, focus etc.

It looks like as college has become standard that everyone "needs" or even "deserves", we are getting to the point where academic positions should also be handed out on a basis of some social distributive program.

Yes it's hard to do and involves sacrifices. But not everyone needs to do it. It's not immediately obvious that we gain a lot by opening the gates wide and accommodating any life choices to be compatible with any prestigious careers. Artists and scientists used to do this kind of traveling around and being under the patronage of various rich people or institutions. It isn't clear that making it into a steady stable job with orders of magnitude more people chipping away at it incrementally has brought proportional results at all.

If it's not for you, why not find something that is?

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#128

Post by ProjectArcturis » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:54 PM UTC

dendodge wrote: post #114

physicsguy wrote: post #88

For me, doing a postdoc would mean relocating regularly, my wife having to find new jobs with me (a big stress point for her), a huge amount of job insecurity, etc. By not doing a postdoc, I’ve been able to find a permanent job that pays significantly more, buy a house, and actually start to think about starting a family, which is more important to me. I think if you’re single and male then it’s OK but it’s not surpr…

I'm finishing my PhD in the next couple of months, and am fortunate enough to have a fiancée and a house. I interviewed for one postdoc and found myself hoping I wouldn't get it because it would mean living apart for a few years, or else uprooting our lives and moving across the country, only to repeat the process in a few years' time, with no guarantee of ever finding a permanent position. I'm completely lost now, I…

I postdoc'd for 4 years, then was an instructor for another 3. When I finally got out of academia, my life became so much better. So much more: money, stability, free time, choices, advancement opportunities! Research science is absolutely a broken system and you should strive to exit as soon as possible.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#129

Post by mattkrause » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 2:57 PM UTC

flobosg wrote: post #4

I’m currently writing my dissertation and still debating whether to stay in academia or not. I mean, even if I had not been academically unsuccessful during grad school I will get a piece of paper saying "You have a PhD" in the end. If you fail during your postdoc you are left with basically nothing. That’s a huge burden.

I see it the exact opposite way: 5/6 of a PhD rounds down to nothing, more or less, so you’re somewhat trapped. As a postdoc, you have a lot more flexibility to leave whenever.

Re: Postdocs under pressure: ‘Can I even do this any more?’

#130

Post by darkhorse13 » Sat, Dec 19, 2020, 3:00 PM UTC

LockAndLol wrote: post #93

The people expanding our scientific understanding of the world being undervalued by society and institutions is the epitome of our current state. We're burning out our engines and slowing down innovation... for what? Can any academics or postdocs express what they believe should change to improve their situations?

>The people expanding our scientific understanding of the world being undervalued by society

I fully expect to get downvoted for this, but maybe it is because the expansion of scientific understanding produced by academia and academics has dwindled when it comes to applications in real life. Sure I will come across click-bait articles about new research on black holes and dark matter/energy/whatever every week, but it all seems so far from industry and application.