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Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

cnn.com

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Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#121

Post by jjcon »

salawat wrote: post #90
free_rms wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The paper she was fired over was leaked, though, and it's.. not novel. It's the same things everyone else has been saying for years (global warming bad, also don't build a racist speech reproducer), and Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship and honestly would make the paper better to…

>Google wanted her to reference their efforts to mitigate those things in addition to repeating yet again that they can happen. Self-serving? Sure, but not really censorship. You have a really funny world-view where compelled speech doesn't fall in the censorship bucket.

My employer asks me to change wording or add in bits of marketing fluff to my presentations all the time and I don’t go screaming to the hills for ‘compelled speech’. If you’re producing work on your companies dime it shouldn’t come as a surprise that they want you to represent the company well.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#122

Post by Jabbles »

ergocoder wrote: post #58
mooneater wrote: post #37

> accepted her resignation immediately In saying "resignation", CNN is presenting the management framing -- as many people have pointed out, she was fired. Bloomberg states both sides of that: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-12-16/google-ai... As does The Verge: https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/7/22158501/timnit-gebru-tea...

I have no idea why this matters. Timnit gave an ultimatum (i.e. do this or I'll leave). Google agreed to her condition of parting way. This is like I go to my boss and ask for a $1 billion dollars. Otherwise, I'll leave. Then, my boss decides that I should leave since the boss can't give me $1b. Then, I keep telling my friends that "well, I'm actually fired.". huh?

> This is like I go to my boss and ask for a $1 billion dollars.

How about if you go to your boss and demand that the racial discrimination you're experiencing stops?

Since we don't have the original email, we can't tell. But I bet it's closer to my example than yours.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#123

Post by bonoboTP »

adamsea wrote: post #102
bzb6 wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A black woman? How is she black?

Do you really mean that?

They are getting downvoted but may be genuine. I as a European person also didn't immediately see her as black, just based on appearance. Closer to North African / Arab / Middle Eastern. Given that Eritrea is right next to the Arabian peninsula, it's not surprising.

It wasn't necessarily meant as an insult. Perhaps in America it's clear she's black, in countries with more North African and Middle Eastern immigration, it may not be.

The geographic distance from Eritrea to West Africa is the same as to Denmark (like 5000 km) and the terrain isn't easy to traverse. If someone imagines all black people "must" look the typical West African way (Ghana, Ivory Coast etc), they may be legit confused when seeing someone from the other side of the continent. The reason that both are considered black is social.

Edit: for example, when seeing her photo she reminded me of the Syrian-Hungarian reporter Hesna Al Ghaoui: https://hesna.hu/gallery#media So precisely what skin tone qualifies you as black is hard to say. Somewhere between Al Ghaoui and Gebru I guess: https://c.files.bbci.co.uk/B817/production/_115872174_gettyi...

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#124

Post by tolbish »

crusso wrote: post #118
alilleybrinker wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is not an accurate description of events.

I'm just going by the CNN article and her tweets, which include the response from some manager, Megan: As a result, we are accepting your resignation immediately, effective today. https://twitter.com/timnitGebru/status/1334364732480958467 Looks like Timnit Gebru made an ultimatum and offered her resignation if the terms of the ultimatum were not met. Google accepted her resignation and chose to have it effective imme…

Google let her go early claiming her actions were "inconsistent with the expectations of a Google manager".

That is the language used when firing someone for their behavior.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#125

Post by woah »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #117

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Google tried to prevent her from publishing a paper, which is outside of their normal practice, then dissembled about what happened (pretending internal reviewers are anonymous, for example)

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#126

Post by tines »

js8 wrote: post #120
tomcam wrote: post #24

I have contempt for a lot of the things that Google does, but I have a sincere question about all of this. Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? I would say the same about Peter Norvig or Guido van Rossum. If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on?

> Why should they employ anyone who criticizes them that way in public? [..] If you ran the company, or the department, or owned your own firm where employees aired your dirty laundry like this, why should you be expected to keep them on? Because owning a company doesn't necessarily mean owning people working for it. Ask yourself the same question about the government, why should your government be expected to keep y…

Since when does firing people constitute ownership?

I (partially) own the government (in theory, if it's a democracy). I don't own the company that I work for.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#127

Post by holidayacct »

woah wrote: post #125
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #117

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Google tried to prevent her from publishing a paper, which is outside of their normal practice, then dissembled about what happened (pretending internal reviewers are anonymous, for example)

What was the topic of the paper?

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#128

Post by uh_uh »

woah wrote: post #125
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #117

Wow, Google's ethical AI group sounds like the most toxic group of individuals I've ever heard of. I'm going to sidestep the debate about whether Gebru was "fired" or she "resigned", because that debate primarily centers on how one defines the words. But clearly she did do this: She sent a letter that made a bunch of (IMO) outrageous demands, outrageous because it essentially attacked other people at the company, and…

Google tried to prevent her from publishing a paper, which is outside of their normal practice, then dissembled about what happened (pretending internal reviewers are anonymous, for example)

Didn't they push back on the publication because the paper was lacking in certain regards? IIRC it failed to take into account relevant recent papers, for example. Which probably could have been fixed if they didn't submit as late as they did.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#129

Post by jjcon »

js8 wrote: post #114
pontus wrote: post #99

My god, people need to calm down. I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. If their employer is knowingly engaging in illegal activity then by all means, be a whistle blower and set ultimatums, but this has gone too far. If you have a problem with the motivations of your employer or how it handles various sensitive issues then start preparing for interv…

> I understand that some may be upset about things their employer does and that's well within their rights. It is within their rights, true. But it's not just a question of law, but also ethics. We accept that, in democratic societies, we can freely criticize our government and still stay the citizens. There are good principal and practical reasons to have it so. However, in private companies, for some reason, we don…

I think the primary reason for this is because people (generally speaking) in democratic societies share control of their government (for the people by the people etc). This is not true of company->employee relationships.

It is assumed that if you join a company you share their values and if you no longer share their values the barrier to leave and join another is quite low. People have different values and that is fine. Unless your employer is engaging in illegal behaviors, speaking out against their value set is just showing intolerance for other people and their values.

Move on, join up and use your time to help lift values you hold, don’t just spend all your time tearing down others. Respect the fact that others can have values different than your own.

Re: Tensions in Google's ethical AI group increase as it sends demands to CEO

#130

Post by jasonhong »

I find it interesting how, in the other current thread about an antitrust suit against Google (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25448718) that people there are criticizing Google's lack of ethics, and in this thread people are criticizing a team in Google whose goal is to try to get Google to act more ethically.
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