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Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

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Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#121

Post by dodobirdlord »

lou1306 wrote: post #53
oefrha wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long suspected that r/DataHoarder is why we can't have nice things, i.e. cheap online data storage that is slightly subsidized by the average user who only stores a little. Thanks for confirming from the point of view of a major storage provider.

> r/DataHoarder To be honest, 99% of the posts there are about building your own NAS. And I don't fully agree with the "we can't have nice things" narrative in the Google Photos case. How bad was Google hurt by the actions of these few "power users"? Before that, how much did they profit by driving out competition with their "unlimited" plan? (Which, by the way, was neatly integrated and advertised into their own mob…

I don't really get the gnashing of teeth about Google withdrawing the "Unlimited". Google never promised anyone "Unlimited" anything, the details of the contract always said "we reserve the right to modify this in the future".

People who aren't data hoarders, who contracted with Google in the spirit of the contract ("more storage than you will need"), are still getting what they signed up for. People who contracted with Google not in the spirit of the contract ("Haha, unlimited, huh?") are also getting exactly what they signed up for - the letter, rather than the spirit of the contract. Google is keeping the spirit of the contract with people who took them up on the spirit of the contract, and Google is keeping the letter of the contract with people who took them up on the letter of the contract. I cannot see any fault in this.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#122

Post by dodobirdlord »

taeric wrote: post #102
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think all these analogies are quite leaky. There is a very simple rule that can be used to explain situations like this, without any awkward analogies: don't expect to be able to indefinitely cost a company much more money than they make from you.

I don't even really disagree. But I should be able to expect that they can't advertise what they can't deliver.

They don't, the fine print always explains what the company means by "unlimited".

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#123

Post by taeric »

dodobirdlord wrote: post #122
taeric wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't even really disagree. But I should be able to expect that they can't advertise what they can't deliver.

They don't, the fine print always explains what the company means by "unlimited".

Of course they do. But they are certainly playing on the mind of the average consumer who thinks they are buying more access than they are.

We don't accept that from "door buster" deals in papers. Curious why we fully accept it from cell providers.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#124

Post by salawat »

selectodude wrote: post #87
salawat wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"If you can get it to us, we'll store it" is totally reasonable." No it isn't. On the one hand you say we'll store it if you can get it to us, then on the other you build an obstruction to data getting to you. Data propagation is part of storage. I have to get bits off my processor, to your physical media to be stored, and you just built a barrier to keep that from happening. You don't get to use "unlimited" for mar…

I have unlimited data transfer on my home internet connection. Is my ISP pulling a "bait and switch" because my internet bandwidth isn't also unlimited? Ignoring the whole "physically impossible" thing, of course. The entire universe is a bait and switch using that sort of logic.

Yes. Your ISP is. Because as one gentleman found out when doing terabytes worth of off hours remote backups, your ISP is more than happy to come back and bite you if you actually put those contractual terms to the test.

The fact is, every last ISP has been caught extracting higher fees from users for purportedly unlimited plans, to which the user was given the understanding they werre paying to not be throttled then hiding behind weasel worded contractual clauses to avoid culpability so as to not be held to task by having to improve their network infrastructure to handle actual traffic needs.

I'm more than versed in networking. I may not work backbone services, but I'm aware of the foundations of it, and I've gone out of my way to get familiar with the business environments and models around it.

Yes it's all statistical multiplexing. Yes. QoS is a purportedly necessary scourge to everyone in the modern day. Why? Because we allow ISP's and connectivity providers to sit back and provide lackluster links, overpromise what's being delivered, and wiggle off the hook.

My assertion is you shouldn't be able to market unlimited. All it does is create a misleading and unmeasurable relationship where no one can be held to account, and the status of the "relationship" between the customer and provider is opaque to the customer.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#125

Post by woleium »

dawnerd wrote: post #89
oefrha wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've long suspected that r/DataHoarder is why we can't have nice things, i.e. cheap online data storage that is slightly subsidized by the average user who only stores a little. Thanks for confirming from the point of view of a major storage provider.

I don’t think it’s them, I think it’s the people at r/plex that are using google drive as their data store and people bragging about having 100s of tbs of content.

I doubt that is so much of an issue as most of the content will be deduplicated across users.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#126

Post by radihuq »

redm wrote: post #3

I launched MediaFire as an unlimited storage provider in 2006. While it is true that data accumulates as time goes on, it's not as big of an issue as described. Older data tends to be smaller, for example, photos were lower resolution. That is compounded by the fact that storage is getting cheaper. For example, the price for a 500GB drive in 2006 is the same as a 14TB drive price today. If your getting the same subsc…

Wow MediaFire, I remember years ago when I was 11 I absolutely loved the service. I thought it was so cool you could see how many people downloaded your files haha thanks for building MediaFire

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#127

Post by fuzxi »

bayindirh wrote: post #111
lgvld wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compulsive_hoarding

Some people even hunt for "Unlimited for life" early adopter plans and grab them, then abuse them. One of the backup services imposed a 12TB limit. Evernote reverted their unlimited data storage pledge, Google retired unlimited data in GSuite. I cannot say all of them due to hoarders but, Evernote CEO openly said that "People tried to zip and upload their backups to our servers. We're not that big".

>Google retired unlimited data in GSuite

They actually did not. The $12/user/month plan with an unenforced data limit was rebranded as the $20/month Enterprise Standard plan with unlimited storage explicitly allowed. Existing users are currently grandfathered in at the $12 price but may be forced to "upgrade" at some point in the future.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#128

Post by fuzxi »

woleium wrote: post #125
dawnerd wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t think it’s them, I think it’s the people at r/plex that are using google drive as their data store and people bragging about having 100s of tbs of content.

I doubt that is so much of an issue as most of the content will be deduplicated across users.

Standard practice is to encrypt media stored on cloud storage to avoid DMCA fuckery.

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#129

Post by fuzxi »

zubspace wrote: post #113
FiddlerClamp wrote: post #83

Another Ponzi-like scheme: "Lifetime."

I think lifetime can very well work if done right, but not at zero cost for a user. You need a healthy business with guaranteed sales. FL Studio [1] is one example which does it right. After buying a license you get lifetime free updates. But they offer different editions and plugins which are not free. So first, they get users hooked with lifetime updates and in the long run this will probably work out for them, bec…

Even worse when a service with a paid lifetime license transitions to a subscription model. See: Cerberus [1], a Find My Phone style app. Luckily I'd migrated to the built-in Android equivalent before I got the email that my lifetime license was expiring.

[1] https://www.androidpolice.com/2019/12/21/cerberus-paid-lifet...

Re: Unlimited is like a Ponzi Scheme

#130

Post by fuzxi »

tomcam wrote: post #86
taeric wrote: post #66

I'm hitting this with internet. So frustrating that for most places "unlimited data" is about 20 gigs.

But that’s like saying you are frustrated by auto companies because your car isn’t free and doesn’t last unlimited miles. Don’t you normally pay for things?

No, it isn't like that at all. Software doesn't translate to physical analogies well, but a closer analogy is saying that he's frustrated because his "Unlimited Miles" gasoline actually only lasts for 100 miles, then he has to buy more.
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