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More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

theguardian.com

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Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#121

Post by ClumsyPilot »

miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

> "would rather not work with people like this."

Her clout/skills/PR and her attitude are a package deal.

Google wants to use her for PR, but expects her to be a lapdog.

I conflicted about many things, but respect her for having backbone.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#122

Post by spacekitcat »

_y5hn wrote: post #83
spacekitcat wrote: post #59

I respect that she sacrificed her prestigious role to force Google to at least admit where they really stand.

"Old men's club" is real and need a shakeup. However, the elite clubs hurt both genders, not just one of them. It is not balanced by an equally forceful swing the other direction, but by emphasis on mutual respect for diversity of people. Sometimes measures need to be put in place to get the ball rolling, but they should be temporary.

I think we agree.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#123

Post by rendall »

I get that Timnit Gebru is well respected in the field of AI ethics, and that the demand via HR that she retract the paper without discussion or appeal at the 11th hour sounds super shady

That email blast though. It made it so much worse for her position.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#124

Post by true_religion »

gfodor wrote: post #42
zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

The Facebook “walkout” was a particularly hilarious example of this when you consider the second step of the walkout: walking back in.

If you look at trade unions, you see that walkouts, work slow downs and temporary strikes are commonly used.

The goal is never to destroy the company but to simply force them to the bargaining table by reminding them of the economic power workers provide.

A total strike or worse a union quitting a company all together is a nuclear option.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#125

Post by that_guy_iain »

geofft wrote: post #10
IshKebab wrote: post #5

I thought she offered her resignation and they accepted?

She offered to resign on a particular schedule to work out things with her team if they insisted on retracting the paper. They terminated her employment immediately, while she was on vacation, because of an email she sent to the ERG about it, and they didn't even inform her direct manager. Whatever they accepted, it wasn't the resignation she offered. (And even if they had done so, I expect the folks here to remain u…

If you're a Google employee I have to say it seems like you guys a pampered beyond believe. Someone publically tells people not to work on something for the company and doesn't get fired for that but gets shown the door after demanding confidental information or else and you guys are unhappy? Stay at Google, because most companies would have had you out the door if you sent a public email telling people to stop working.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#126

Post by diego »

brayhite wrote: post #99
w1ntermute wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s just another example of the “participation culture” that modern parenting and social media have made commonplace. Who needs to do anything real when you can just upvote or retweet? You get the same sort of participation trophy that you’ve been taught to aim for since childhood.

This is such a bad-faith, shallow take. Ascribing the act of bringing awareness to “participation trophies” is nonsense. I also disagree with the parent. Bringing change is almost always easiest from within. “Don’t like it? Leave.” stances aim to do more to attack the person involved than it does to take a critical look at whatever problem it is that’s being discussed.

You don't need to leave, you can strike for example. "Condemning" does nothing.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#127

Post by _y5hn »

spacekitcat wrote: post #122
_y5hn wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Old men's club" is real and need a shakeup. However, the elite clubs hurt both genders, not just one of them. It is not balanced by an equally forceful swing the other direction, but by emphasis on mutual respect for diversity of people. Sometimes measures need to be put in place to get the ball rolling, but they should be temporary.

I think we agree.

Yeah, but "The Middle Path" is a hard sell to the masses.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#128

Post by rafiki6 »

telltruth wrote: post #103
miked85 wrote: post #13

She gave her employer an ultimatum, threatening to quit if she didn't get her way. They called her bluff. I don't see how that is the same as being fired. At that point she was on her way out, one way or another; most employers would rather not work with people like this.

Initially I took Google's side given Gebru has history of bullying so aggressively and has no qualms to play race/gender cards at every opportunity she gets. But now that more details (including the paper in question) has been revealed, it's hard to stay on Google's side. It is clear that the peer review process that Jeff Dean had described has been optional for all intent and purpose. It says along similar lines tha…

I think that's a balanced view. The fact is, Google might have constructively dismissed her because of her history and attitude and they knew if they outright fired her, it would be a PR nightmare. Letting her resign like this makes it much more complex and doesn't open them up to any serious threat of litigation.

She can try to sue them, but now that she made it public it's quite unlikely any court would look at it.

All in all, it's obvious Google didn't follow their own supposed research protocols, but this whole thing is much more complex and I think it has very little to do with her paper.

Re: More than 1,200 Google workers condemn firing of AI scientist Timnit Gebru

#130

Post by sam0x17 »

zartar wrote: post #26

I find the semi-regular condemnations from employees of big tech companies hollow. If you work for one of these companies and find their behavior unsavory, go work somewhere else - this is actually what might cause executives at these companies to reflect on how they might change course. The fact that most of these employees could easily get well paying (just not as _ridiculously well paying_) jobs elsewhere to me fe…

The problem with this view, though, is imagine if you're in that situation, and you leave, only to be replaced with someone with more amoral views. It's the opposite of a solution imo.
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