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How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

mtlynch.io

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Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#121

Post by d0100 »

greenkey wrote: post #74

I like this post but “unscrupulous merchant” seems harsh for a company that may have changed their policies and didn’t realize they had to inform the referring agent of those changes. It’s not uncommon for policies to change; that initial marketing spiel for bringing agents aboard doesn’t look like a contract. The reselling agent probably didn’t have a case here, and the merchant went out of their way to assist when…

I disagree that “unscrupulous merchant” is harsh. If only for the fact that they create a referral that's not for their flagship product and not for promotional products. Which they then go on to blast the visitor with.

I cannot read that scheme and not agree with “unscrupulous merchant” as a apt description of the company

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#122

Post by corty »

amenod wrote: post #108
ornornor wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I live in Switzerland. A lot of stuff is paid cash at the store, with a debit card, or as a bill that you receive at home later. There is no credit card involved in the transaction. I've also tried charging back on my Swiss card once... What a mission. I was treated the same way any other store treats me: download this PDF, print it out, fill it in (5 pages), send it in the mail , wait 3 weeks, never hear back. Compa…

This might explain it - Switzerland is in Europe, but not part of EU. At least in EU consumer has lots of rights and is pretty well protected. I have no idea how that is in Switzerland (though what you report surprises me). That said, legal action in Europe... good luck. :) If this happens to you a lot, go for a credit card. "Chargeback" works worldwide (afaik) and it puts you in the position of power, where merchant…

CC chargebacks in Germany can be a hassle. Most people get their CC through their bank, and have to submit chargebacks through their banks. Half of the banks do straightforward and simple chargebacks, half want you to do a ritual dance like the swiss example and treat you like you want to rip off someone.

Also, consumer protection is nice on paper, but especially for smaller amounts of money or not-so-clear cases it doesn't work well. You still have to get a lawyer and go to court. Also, since there are no class-action suits US-style, where companies seem to be somewhat afraid of getting sued, in Europe they rely on the statistics of most people being too lazy to sue, because everyone has to sue one-by-one for themselves only. Only rarely, for high-profile stuff, consumer protection offices get involved with class-style (but fairly toothless usually) suits.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#123

Post by Normal_gaussian »

newdude116 wrote: post #117
GordonS wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Use your US CC, make charge-backs I'm in the UK, and made my first ever charge back a couple of months back, after Ryanair refused to refund a flight that was cancelled due to corona virus (we'd booked it before the pandemic started). I'd paid with my CC (a UK card; not sure why it would be any different with a US CC?). I forget the exact sum, but it was something like £1,500. Ryanair completely took the piss - the…

"I fully recommend using it if a vendor is outright refusing to uphold their side of the bargain." What is also very stupid since they don't lose only the money but also very likely a customer.

They aren't that likely to lose each customer. Ryanair targets cheap flights, their customers are those who discriminate on price. In this instance there is even an externality to point to, shifting the blame - even implicitly.

It also has to be considered that shrinking their market share is viable if it allows the company to survive.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#124

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

I like the article. It presents the way that I believe we should all behave with each other in a professional environment.

Respect and Courtesy are important at all times (IMNSHO). Some folks seem to feel that being respectful is a sign of weakness, but cops are extremely respectful, as they explain to you why they will be writing a ticket for an eye-watering amount (at least, good cops are).

Many moons ago, when the domain market was still a “thing,” I had a broker offer to sell me a domain I wanted, and the price was extremely reasonable, so I took them up on it. It turned out that they actually were “leasing” it to me, and they wouldn’t transfer it to me.

I asked them, and they responded fairly aggressively, pretty much telling me to FO, and that I was “harassing” them (a legal term, really), by asking them to release the domain.

My response was fairly similar to the approach in the article, and I was able to get the domain. They were not very gracious about it, but I did get it, and we never needed to deal with each other again, after that.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#125

Post by DanBC »

ornornor wrote: post #71
noodlesUK wrote: post #67

The blog post he mentions Identity Theft, Credit Reports and You is a really good read that has surfaced on HN a couple times. If you haven’t read it, you should. The notion of simply being an organised professional being the most intimidating thing to bureaucracies is very true in my experience. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2017/09/09/identity-theft-credit-r...

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

When you have a problem you make a single contact to their customer service line setting out what the problem is, and asking for their advice about what needs to happen for it to be fixed. Make a recording of this and keep details of the date and time and the name of the person you speak to.

If that doesn't fix the problem you then make use of their complaints process. This is hard because they usually hide it away somewhere. But they all have one. It's best to do this using real letters in the post, because you might need this paperwork later. Grind through it until you get a final answer.

If that didn't fix it you have a choice. For regulated industries you can go to the regulator for advice. Or you can start a legal process.

For the regulator send a letter using whatever weird webform they use. Make sure you mention that you've already exhausted the company's own dispute resolution process. Some regulators are better than others - often you won't get much satisfaction from regulators.

Send a letter before action. This describes what went wrong and what you want them to do to put it right. Give them the timeline of how you've tried to fix it. Give them reasonable time limits to fix it. Then issue small claims proceedings.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#126

Post by aembleton »

0xfaded wrote: post #119
stickfigure wrote: post #42

Geez. This article was hard to follow but... it sounds like the merchant is really screwing up. My SaaS business gets most of our users via an affiliate program, and many years ago I worked in porn where nearly all of our users from an affiliate program. The #1 rule of affiliate programs is to treat affiliates like royalty. Or more accurately - business partners. Be clear about what you offer, be generous, and always…

Is there a good way to contact an online business directly and say "It seems you pay a 20% affiliate fee. I would like a 20% discount?" Amazon kinda does this with smile and donations, even though I don't use amazon anymore. I go out of my way, with link strippers, cookie removers, adblockers, to the point of often manually copy and pasting links into a private window if necessary, to avoid affiliate links. When I do…

If you're in the UK, then you can use Topcashback [1] or Quidco [2]. Both of these links are affiliate links too, so if you start receiving cashback then I'll get £20.

With both of these services, you get to collect the affiliate fee. Some things like insurance are huge and you can easily get £100 for them, most are much smaller.

1. https://www.topcashback.co.uk/ref/aembleton

2. https://www.quidco.com/raf/23003/

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#127

Post by Silhouette »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #88
ornornor wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

> I’m at a complete loss in Europe. Any advice? In my experience, this has stopped working so well in the last few years with companies tending to call customers' bluffs. In most cases the best solution is: stop giving them money and go to the competitor. Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you. If the industry…

Don't threaten legal action unless you already plan to follow it through: companies know this is unlikely to be followed up and will stonewall you.

You actually do have to follow through if you're going to play that game. Otherwise almost everyone is just going to call your bluff, and I'm reasonably sure CS reps are now being actively trained to do so immediately at many companies. For example, any implication that you'd like to close an account or cancel an order will just be met with "I can do that for you immediately if you like", and if you don't take them up on it then they know you're not serious and you've lost any sort of credibility or leverage you might have had.

So, actually follow through. In the UK, suppose you have a legitimate grievance but get messed around by customer services, who may of course be incentivised to do exactly that. You may get better results by desisting from dealing with CS reps and instead sending a letter with verified delivery to the company's registered address. Clearly set out your grievance, what you would like them to do about it, and a reasonable amount of time you will allow for that to happen. Also include everything necessary for it to constitute a letter before action, which is the first step to a formal small claims action here, and possibly give a simple, objective statement in your letter that unfortunately if the matter is not resolved amicably by your stated deadline then you will proceed with that action.

IME, at that point your case may well be transferred to someone who actually knows the law and will be able to see if they have actually broken it or have obligations under it. And if they do, they'll know that it's in their best interests to resolve the matter quickly and agreeably if possible, and you may well get a response proposing some reasonable resolution (or saying that they'll stop chasing you if they've been hassling you after making a mistake).

If they don't do that, then actually bring the small claims action. This is designed to be accessible to normal people without requiring big expenses and professional lawyers. A lot of companies will apparently just not show up and let you win by default in that case, and you'll get some reasonable compensation for whatever wrong they've done to you. And if they do show up and you have a reasonable grievance, there's still a fair chance you'll win reasonable compensation accordingly.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#128

Post by buckminster »

corty wrote: post #73
ornornor wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I moved to Europe, I was VERY surprised to say the least that this doesn’t apply at all here. The attitude is more like “you should feel lucky we let you give us your money and purchase something from us. Now fuck off.” I tried the professional attitude, I tried threatening legal action (I have legal insurance that would pay an obscene amount of lawyer fees if it came to that), I have tried the angry consumer, I…

Sue them for real, or at least have a lawyer write a letter.

Writing a letter yourself works. In my experience in the UK anyway.

In the past I've had disputes where I've made tens of phone calls to customer support people who cannot solve the problem but pretend they will. Every call is groundhog day.

Now, if the problem isn't solved by the first phone call I write a letter.

A short paragraph (one or two sentences) describing what happened and why it is a problem. A short paragraph describing what I want. Then all the tedious detail. And conclude by restating the problem and what I want. No threats.

It hasn't failed yet.

Re: How I Collected a Debt from an Unscrupulous Merchant

#130

Post by jaclaz »

mtlynch wrote: post #114
jaclaz wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I may, I am not convinced that the "professional way" solved anything. Of course just my opinion, but I read: >In the meantime, how do you wish to resolve the matter? What outcome are you wishing for? as an amicable prompt to find a way to solve a trifling matter in a short time. I mean, the "professional way" has nothing to do with managing to escalate to the CEO (how exactly did you manage to get his e-mail?). B…

Thanks for reading! Yeah, it's tough to say what would have happened with a different approach. I'm obviously biased, but I still feel like the communication style made a big difference. Given how hostile Herscu was in the first email, I don't think I would have reached successful resolution had I just angrily demanded payment. > I mean, the "professional way" has nothing to do with managing to escalate to the CEO (h…

Well, I am not seeing anything hostile in the way Mr. Herscu approached you.

And even if there was something (still the way I am reading between the lines) he was likely told by his CEO - to put it blatantly - "Hey, get this sucker threatening me off my back".

But yes, if it is possible to bypass all the lower levels, it is a good move, I had the privilege of knowing personally a few top CEO's/entepreneurs/influential people, and they always recommended me "Always talk to the higher in grade".

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