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‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

nytimes.com

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Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#121

Post by 2-tpg »

NelsonMinar wrote: post #28
sonotathrowaway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As Brian shared with the ColorBlock ERG this morning, we don’t care what The New York Times thinks. The most important thing we care about is you, our employees, and what you think. (As long as you’re of the correct skin tone and political ideology)

and as long as you don't have any political thoughts. don't want those.

You can have political thoughts. But these employees demanded in tears that upper management break their silence on an on-going case (which they decided was due to skin color, racism, and police violence/murder, when these interpretations are far from clear).

So what about the "political" thoughts, that said that Floyd was a career criminal unworthy of sainthood or role modeling, dying from a self-inflicted fentanyl overdose, and resisting arrest (where the other people in the car somehow received fair treatment, despite their skin color). It was gross to hear company's talk of police murder and police racism, and their devastation of the passing of someone they don't know, and wouldn't have known if they were Latin or Asian or Indian or basically any other minority.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#122

Post by cbthrow91 »

slg wrote: post #57
oh_sigh wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a fact, but it means nothing without context. I punched a man in the face yesterday. To determine if I'm a violent person it's important to know whether I punched a man who was pushing his child on a swing set, or whether I punched a man who was crawling through a window in my home.

What context would exonerate Coinbase of fostering an environment that results in 75% of its Black employees feeling discriminated against? And if that context existed, why didn't Coinbase mention it in their preemptive rebuttal?

Without the additional context from the article, I think citing 75% is a bit misleading.

"When Coinbase announced it would be opening an office in Portland, Ore., several Black employees in the compliance department who worked remotely were told to move there or reapply for new jobs, four former employees said."

"All of the Black workers in the compliance division ended up among the group of 15 who left."

Without concrete evidence of discrimination in the article, my mind jumps to this being the pivotal cause of the stats, one team getting asked to relocate and that team being disproportionate in its demographics.

I know from co-workers that the company once had a strong stance against remote work and made limited exceptions. I can see that being a source of a lot of discontent. Asking folks to move to a new city is a big ask too; I could see the company having handled that poorly.

On the upside CB shifted to remote-first which should be great for being able to have a more diverse workforce. And contrary to some of the comments here, I take that as strong evidence of the ability for our leadership team to acknowledge mistakes and course correct.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#123

Post by 9HZZRfNlpR »

TACIXAT wrote: post #115
9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are not enough qualified black people in that job market, what is this that Americans have that difficult to grok?

If true, what are they doing to change that? When I was at Google there were zero paths to bring in people with potential and train them up. I’m guessing it is the same at Coinbase. Doing nothing to address the problem then pointing at your H1Bs and patting yourself on the back.

I would guess through the same system everyone else qualifies through, weather it be Google or someone else.

Your local governments have to push the education forward instead of doing these racist affirmative action rules.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#124

Post by sfkdjf9j3j »

2-tpg wrote: post #121
NelsonMinar wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

and as long as you don't have any political thoughts. don't want those.

You can have political thoughts. But these employees demanded in tears that upper management break their silence on an on-going case (which they decided was due to skin color, racism, and police violence/murder, when these interpretations are far from clear). So what about the "political" thoughts, that said that Floyd was a career criminal unworthy of sainthood or role modeling, dying from a self-inflicted fentanyl…

As the article says in the second paragraph, the employees that they spoke to left in 2018 and 2019, so this response is irrelevant. I personally find it reprehensible and deliberately lacking context as well but you are entitled to your opinion.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#125

Post by ygjb »

treis wrote: post #87
ygjb wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only incongruous if you evaluate it in the context of people who expect to be treated fairly when they report mistreatment. There is a pattern of behavior minimizing the scope and impact of abusive or discriminatory actions across the tech industry, and it is very prevalent on this site as well. The simple reality is that unless an employee is able to obtain clear, slam-dunk evidence of directly legally actionab…

Thinly veiled insults aside, you didn't address my actual point. The people in the article risked all the repercussions you mentioned by formally reporting the abuse and speaking with the NYTimes. Saying that they would do that but not risk snapping a pic of a racist e-mail, as an example, doesn't make any sense.

Insulting people wasn't my intention, but I have some uncharitable views of the HN community members that cry meritocracy and find founders blameless.

You are correct that the people in the article that either filed complaints, or spoke with the New York Times risked repercussions, but not all of the folks the Times spoke with are identified. People were willing to talk, but not necessarily on the record, or to be identified. That is because they are fearful of reprisal, based on past experiences and observations.

That is the biggest challenge for people confronting systemic issues like racism, poverty, homelessness, or any number of topics. It's not enough for victims to stand up for themselves, because there is a systemic imbalance in the ability to pursue remedies through the courts or other means. Getting justice in civil matters often boils down to the size of a victims pocket book (and especially in contrast to pocket books of the people or organizations that have made that person a victim). There are so many individuals who have left the tech industry after experiencing bad behaviour, discrimination, and abuse, and any one of those people could be the next Hedy Lamarr or Philip Emeagwali, and the industry is worse for not having those people in it.

Again, as a community we do our peers a disservice by not trusting them when they say there is a problem, especially when they are so consistently proven right.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#126

Post by snypher »

aparsons wrote: post #89
9HZZRfNlpR wrote: post #74

When minorities get hired just because companies want to show they are doing their part, doesn't it make sense people hired because of their skin color have harder times to get promotions?

You will get downvoted because HN reflects SV groupthink, but you are absolutely correct. This is a well-studied phenomenon analogous to the Peter principle, and has been observed in workplaces (as you described) and schools (black students who get in to meet an arbitrary target struggle more and have a worse college experience). We are doing these people a disservice. Even in the most “socially forward thinking” com…

Please don't bother replying to something you know will be flagged, as now we have no context for your comments.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#127

Post by 6c9be5fc6b39 »

slg wrote: post #109
6c9be5fc6b39 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is possible for a Black person to feel discriminated against because of their race even when such discrimination has not occurred. The event mentioned in the article referring to a Black person dealing drugs and having a gun is bad, but the rest of it just sounds like normal annoying work crap. Being talked down to and belittled in a work meeting? I'm a middle-aged white programmer and that's happened to me a numb…

>It is possible for a Black person to feel discriminated against because of their race even when such discrimination has not occurred. This explanation's believability has an inverse relationship with the number of claims. I could buy the idea that a couple people perceived "normal annoying work crap" as discrimination, but would that happen 15 times? 75% of the Black employees left the company in a 6 month window. Y…

The article implies that a number of the Black people who left did so because the compliance division was relocated and they didn't want to relocate with it. It doesn't say how many people's decisions were influenced by annoying work crap that they interpreted as discrimination.

This is a really dishonest article. It tries to lead one to believe things (e.g. that 15 Black people left Coinbase because they were belittled in meetings) without stating it outright or making a case for it. Just insinuation spun up from a few concrete situations that themselves are mostly vague or not obviously discrimination (the gun and drugs thing being the obvious exception).

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#128

Post by sfkdjf9j3j »

briane80 wrote: post #38
CyberDildonics wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there is no evidence, what are they being pressured to "kneel" to?

Maybe you're not aware of the back story. Coinbase was one of the few large companies that did not go all woke over the George Floyd incident. The identity politics activists in the company took offence to this and demanded management make a statement. When management refused to bend the knee the activists made allegations of racism and took them to the nytimes.

I feel like someone needs to put a big flag at the top of the comments section asking people to at least skim the article. Maybe the problem is the paywall? Anyway, the people they spoke to all left the company prior to George Floyd's death.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#129

Post by slg »

cbthrow91 wrote: post #122
slg wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What context would exonerate Coinbase of fostering an environment that results in 75% of its Black employees feeling discriminated against? And if that context existed, why didn't Coinbase mention it in their preemptive rebuttal?

Without the additional context from the article, I think citing 75% is a bit misleading. "When Coinbase announced it would be opening an office in Portland, Ore., several Black employees in the compliance department who worked remotely were told to move there or reapply for new jobs, four former employees said." "All of the Black workers in the compliance division ended up among the group of 15 who left." Without con…

Ok, let's accept what you say as fact and ignore that an exception was made for the single White employee in that department which wasn't made for any of the Black employees you are referencing. Let's also ignore the weirdness of 40% of the company's Black employees being on a single seemingly small team. That still leaves 7 other employees in other departments who left the company in a 6 month window due to feeling discriminated against. 35% is obviously a better number than 75%, but it doesn't allow you to dismiss this problem.

Re: ‘Tokenized’: Black Workers’ Struggles at Coinbase

#130

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

tptacek wrote: post #110
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You don't need to do anything. Newspapers are free to publish whatever they'd like. But if the NYT isn't interested in discovering the truth of the accusations, that lends credence to the idea that their primary motivation is not the accusations but Coinbase's lack of support for racial justice politics.

Again: the NYT is a newspaper, and isn't vested with subpoena powers. They operate within the limits all newspapers operate in, and there is more than enough meat in this story to understand why they ran with it. "Isn't interested in discovering the truth of the accusations" is hardly a fair criticism here.

A lack of subpoena powers doesn't mean they can't look into it!

Take this article on the US Meat Animal Research Center (https://www.nytimes.com/2015/01/20/dining/animal-welfare-at-...) as a good example of an organizational misconduct investigation done right. Dr. Keen told the Times they're doing some abusive things to the animals. So the Times talked to a bunch of employees, and reviewed a bunch of documents, in order to make sure they could accurately and concretely describe specific instances of wrongdoing. This is the quality of journalism the New York Times is generally known for. It would be a much worse article - both less fair to the research center and less convincing about the accusations - if they hadn't dug in like that.

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