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Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

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Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#121

Why do people believe there are bad words?

Q: Why do people believe there are bad words?

Advocacy mode = 1

This topic is close to my heart. I've done a significant amount of community work in my past, and inoculating members of it against offense, promoting mutual understanding works wonders, and there are greater implications on our speech and how it may come to be regulated should more of us continue to fail to get along well enough to make it all productive.

Just want to share some hard won insights here, that's all and I am taking you seriously for a moment to highlight something important about "bad" words that your question leads to and that may be of value to others.

In the US, the First Amendment is being questioned. There are lots of reasons for this, and they aren't all appropriate here. But, it's being questioned.

The right to not be offended is coming up a lot too. Some of this is cultural imports / clashes as the globe continues to communicate across basically one Internet ...from other parts of the world where speech is considerably more regulated. And some of it boils down to people lacking the tools needed to handle a dialog properly.

These two things aren't an inclusive treatment on this topic, they just stick right out.

You are quite right. Words are just words. People are just people too, so let's explore that just a bit:

Fact is, we are as offended as we think we are. Offensive, or bad, or profane words, are generally offensive in some fashion or other. Norms largely dictate which words fall into these buckets.

Sometimes law differentiates words too.

From Lessig:

Human behavior is regulated by 4 basic forces, and they are physics, money, law, norms.

Physics and money actually prevent actions. If the universe doesn't allow something, it's not gonna happen, or at least won't happen until our understanding of the rules improves enough to engineer it to happen. Fair enough, right? Money presents a cost barrier in a similar fashion. No money, no act, given a sufficient cost to inhibit said act. Similar work arounds, such as using other people's money are in play that parallel our understanding.

The point being physics and money (or markets) actually inhibit actions.

Law is a post fact force. Law doesn't actually prevent anything as much as it can bring a remedy, or civil cost to having done a thing, and having been caught doing it.

Norms work like laws do, minus the courtroom in the vast majority of cases, however one may still experience significant personal costs when violating norms and having been called out, caught doing it.

Back to being offended.

It's all very subjective. A combination of words spoken to one person may be seen as ordinary, benign, laughable, and so forth, but not necessarily offensive, and for sure not criminal. Another person receives those words, and it's definitely offensive, and may be criminal in both the law and norm sense.

(I'm using criminal as a parallel to violating a norm in a particular egregious manner such that there may be a public debate about having done it, and a sort of conviction related to the outcome of that debate, and it's for simplicity, not actually implying norms are in any way criminalized, nor should be, though in some parts of the world they are anyway, but I very seriously digress.)

Given this subjectivity, it's both very hard to understand what might offend someone, and equally hard to understand whether someone is gaming the idea of being offended to gain advantage, position or leverage, or even standing somehow!

Before I continue, there is weighting too.

Truth is, some stranger we don't know, who may or may not know something about us, just doesn't garner much in the way of weight or credence. Context plays a big role here too, but I'm going to keep it simple. (sort of, this topic is hard)

Boiled down, what can we do when someone online calls us an ass, or speaks of the profane, or vulgar?

Go the other way, and say someone we know well, we value, that knows us does that? Ouch! And maybe that needs to hurt a little. The weight is more significant. Worth consideration, but still not worth righteous indignation any more than the other extreme is.

Weigh that speech, first and foremost!

And realize we all have options too:

The most common is righteous indignation. It is by far the number one response, and in my view, a very significant contributor to the idea of free speech being of increasingly dubious value. It's also completely unnecessary!

If we don't want conversations to go bad, then it's on us to manage our end of the conversation, use the options we have, weigh speech we encounter, and communicate clearly enough for others to understand us better.

Where people don't do that, or expect someone else to do that for them, lots of problems crop up, and it's this dynamic that also puts speech under threat.

Other options include:

Humor --when a rando calls you an ass, laugh! That's about all it's worth. Other examples should follow easily.

Redirect --Back the conversation up, communicate, attempt to get past the matter with better, ideally mutual understanding.

End the dialog. Maybe it's just not worth continuing given someone is gaming being offended, or perhaps just has too many triggers for it to make meaningful conversation difficult, low value.

Seek clarity. Intent, particularly via text, is extremely difficult to discern. It's often not possible to do it with sufficient fidelity to warrant being offended. So don't be. Getting clear on something is powerful, and it's often going to result in a greater bond between participants too. Mutual understanding is a powerful basis for trust and trust is a powerful vaccine against offense and conversations going badly that just don't have to go badly.

Sidebar: On the topic of intent, a while back some people ran an experiment on Slashdot. The idea was simple, and it was for people to write out what various exchanges in a discussion thread meant to them. In other words, their "take" on the whole thing.

These varied considerably from what people thought the real intent was! I participated in this and was stunned to learn most intent is implied, unless very directly stated in fairly formal terms. On your next few threads, consider this idea. Or better, review one as a non-participant. You will see errors in parsing intent run rampant, and may also understand more about why the burden to keep conversations good is a shared one, and why seeking to control others is often futile too.

Just know the intent you perceive is extremely likely to not be what the writer intended, and their context being very different from yours. Culture, norms, station in life, etc...

End Sidebar.

There really aren't "bad" words. Just differences. And there is a shared burden here, not some inherent right to not be offended. We have no way to handle that in a meaningful way without also watering down speech to the point where we will begin to also fail to understand one another and even accurately represent who we are individually. (which drives more failure to understand, and that's a very bad cycle)

Burden is on all of us here, both as speakers and as listeners. And there are options available to us and we should be using them long before we arrive at righteous indignation. If we do use them?

"bad" words become an academic discussion, not a painful, or expensive one.

Advocacy mode = 0

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#123
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if your five year old child has a good view of this sign from their window at home in a tiny village or walks past it regularly on their way home from school and is thereby exposed to random strangers from across the globe pretending to have sex while taking photos, you are supposed to care more that random people on the internet feel you have no right to be incensed and change the name than about the negative imp…

Exactly this, the people from Austria and southern Germany don't find that name offensive at all. They've had enough. And now they exert their right to be left alone and not be harassed by a serious number of english speaking idiots. Places ending in -ing hasnt the same grammatical meaning like do ing something, that scheme is really common (Mering, Kissing, Manching, Piding, Peiting, and hundreds more). It's the sam…

Austrian here. I don't think they have much of a problem with the sexual aspect of the name, but while it may be funny initially, the joke really gets old after years and years of prank calls. I guess they just have had enough.

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#124
post #70

"Don’t people have any sense of humour these days?” asked one OOeN reader. Another noted: “They’re getting free publicity – they ought to have been happy to have a funny name." Free publicity that leads to sign posts being stolen. For a tiny village of 100 people, this is likely a serious hardship. If it isn't bringing in more money than it's costing them, it's an attractive nuisance , not free publicity.

> In 2012, there were reports that the village of Fucking in Upper Austria attempted to change its name to Fugging through a referendum after receiving large amounts of prank phone calls from English speakers about the village's name.[3] According to these reports, they were unable to do so because Fugging in Lower Austria was already so named; Prank phone calls are definitely more annoying than some tourists taking…

GP didn't say taking pictures, but that the sign was being stolen.

I do not know if this is true in the specific case but I have met idiots who stole street signs, so this seems at least plausible.

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#125
post #53
post #2

> The village was first officially inhabited in about 1070, but local lore suggests that a sixth-century Bavarian nobleman called Focko actually founded the settlement. A map dating from 1825 used the spelling Fuking. Weird (to me, an english speaker with no knowledge of modern or 11th century Austrian) that they went with Fugging and not, say, Focking.

There's actually another village called Fugging in Lower Austria, i assume the name was chosen to keep it phonetically close to Fucking but within the linguistic boundaries of "common" village names. Also, a "Fock" is a pig in Austrian and Bavarian dialects, so "Focking" would be indicative of "pigs place" or "where the pigs are from", which hardly sounds like a desirable name for ones village.

Pigs as dirty is an outdated, mostly religious based, meme.

https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-joy-of-pigs-smart-clean-...

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#126

"Don’t people have any sense of humour these days?” asked one OOeN reader. Another noted: “They’re getting free publicity – they ought to have been happy to have a funny name." Free publicity that leads to sign posts being stolen. For a tiny village of 100 people, this is likely a serious hardship. If it isn't bringing in more money than it's costing them, it's an attractive nuisance , not free publicity.

I guess if monetized properly big part of those 100 people could live off the name alone. It's also sad to see this tiny cultural artifact go just because few people are inconvenienced. The stone roads and tiny alleys in the old town are inconvenient yet we don't go bulldozing it all down.

[deleted]

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#127
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually another village called Fugging in Lower Austria, i assume the name was chosen to keep it phonetically close to Fucking but within the linguistic boundaries of "common" village names. Also, a "Fock" is a pig in Austrian and Bavarian dialects, so "Focking" would be indicative of "pigs place" or "where the pigs are from", which hardly sounds like a desirable name for ones village.

Pigs as dirty is an outdated, mostly religious based, meme. https://www.pbs.org/wnet/nature/the-joy-of-pigs-smart-clean-...

Ok but the town wasn't named after pigs so why change it now?

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#128
Considering you cannot educate English speaking idiots, make a living out of them:

Based on social media analysis see when there's a "high season" of idiots

Buy domain fuckingaustria.com or something more clever.

Get 100 tshirts with a town sign illustration, bumper stickers, mugs, wool hats and jumpers (which will be worn across all Europe by EU roaming English speakers on road tours), a roadside market permit, sell them and on the side offer informative pamphlets and mailing list subscriptions about the town and what locals do. Rinse and repeat while pushing what Fucking really is about, always with a deadpan take that leaves wondering wether you're serious or not.

It's what New Zealand's president did with the country not being shown on several maps. Instead of a hissy fit, use humor to point at a problem.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=HynsTvRVLiI

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#129
post #2

> The village was first officially inhabited in about 1070, but local lore suggests that a sixth-century Bavarian nobleman called Focko actually founded the settlement. A map dating from 1825 used the spelling Fuking. Weird (to me, an english speaker with no knowledge of modern or 11th century Austrian) that they went with Fugging and not, say, Focking.

As a German speaker, their choice seems quite natural, because it won't alter the modern pronunciation a lot. I'd even guess that the new spelling might represent a typical Austrian pronunciation with a soft "k" sound more accurately.

Is Austrian like Swiss German where "gg" is "k"? If so the pronunciation might have not/barely changed for locals, but is no longer funny for English speakers.

Re: Fucking, Austria changes name to Fugging

#130
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Translation: "Our Town Name's Light Beer" Hell is the German word for light . https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25225292

I don't know anything about beer, but I've spent a minute looking this up before, so here's a surprise German lesson: ‘Hell‘ means bright . Sometimes, ‘light‘ is the correct translation (e.g. light blue is ‘hellblau‘ in German). But in this context, it means pale, as in pale lager[0]. Nothing to do with reduced alcohol content or calories. The German translation for that kind of ‘light‘ (as in ‘light beer‘) would be…

Thank you for that. I knew I was on shaky ground with the translation. I know nothing about beer and my German is rusty and I didn't do a lot of digging before posting.

My main point stands: It doesn't mean "fucking hell" in German.

Kind of like that song "What does the fox say?" The two brothers didn't expect it to be so successful. In fact, they intended it to be a joke on some TV show they were doing or something like that. They were planning ahead of time to be all "We got our big break and this is the garbage we produced!"

I talked to an American who was sure that it was intended to be a play on words. She heard it as "What the fucks?" and she figured that's why it was so popular.

That may well be part of why it took off -- because it's something for English speakers to snicker about -- but I kind of doubt it was originally planned that way. People who speak English as a second language -- or anything as a second language -- routinely say "bad" things without intending it or even realizing it.

So someone may be doing it ("it" being naming the beer something naughty to the English speaking ear) on purpose because it's funny to people who speak English. But this isn't a case of "laughing with you." It's very much a case of "laughing at you" and the people being laughed at aren't enjoying it and they decided to put a stop to it wrt their town name.

And I feel like I'm getting a lot of hostility for being on the side of the villagers who feel mistreated and don't want to put up with it anymore. And it's an icky thing to be feeling right now and to be observing how this went down overall.

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