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Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

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Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#121

Post by bartread »

fairity wrote: post #101
aroundtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care…

I see a few possibilities that explain your situation --a couple of which you've already mentioned. 1) You've gotten unlucky i.e. each job you've applied to had a 5% acceptance rate, and you've just happened to roll 1-19 out of 20, n times in a row. If this is the case, keep your head down and apply to more places. .95^30 > 20% but .95^90 2) You're not applying to the right places. There are literally thousands of st…

There's another one:

5) You might be a good programmer but your skillset in terms of technology stack(s) might not match up with what employers/recruiters are looking for.

We interviewed a junior dev a couple of years back who had exclusively RPM and mainframe experience. We're a .NET/C#/SQL Server/TypeScript/React shop, with a bit of R and Python thrown in outside of the core technology team.

I couldn't work out whether he couldn't get his head round our pair programming task (which isn't any kind of ridiculous invert a red/black tree type whiteboard problem) because he wasn't a good programmer or because the mental model was so different to what he was used to, and he really seemed to struggle with C#. I didn't give him a job because I thought the risk of having to let him go during probation was too high, which would have sucked given that he'd have been leaving a steady job to join us.

Contrast this with another interviewee who was a nurse, and a self-taught programmer, who really did seem to get it. He nailed our assessments, and we made him an offer. He joined us and has worked out really well.

It's not that I'm against hiring people with mismatched skills, or from an unusual professional background - far from it - but I need to see some glimmer of a good match during the selection process, particularly if somebody would be leaving stable employment to join us (not that we're unstable, but there's the probation period to successfully navigate) and/or - not really an issue now we're all WFH - they're planning to relocate to work with us.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#122

Post by bartread »

ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #30
aroundtown wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of those 30-40% checking in. When I graduated with a CS degree in '07 (US) the first job offer I received was for $25k. I was so angry at that offer. I told the hiring manager that I couldn't possibly work for less than $35k they scoffed at that, I told them no thanks. I could make more money flipping burgers. I kept looking for work. Had another offer for $32k with one week of vacation a year, and no health care…

>It is frustrating knowing I am a good programmer and seeing bad programmers getting well paying jobs. Yes, welcome to the real world of employment where your ability to network, sell yourself well, make your boss happy, be likable and play the politics game is what will make you successful rather than your ability to 1337 code. I know it's bitter, and most don't like to admit this, but tech is by no means a meritocr…

People often talk about these aspects of human behaviour and interaction like they're an inherently bad thing. And, oc rouse, we have to be honest enough to admit that sometimes it can be a bad thing. We can all point to examples of toxic behaviour and nepotism as a result of people sucking up and playing politics.

However, humans are social creatures, and we get things done by cooperating with eachother, so I think it's fair to argue that those social skills are also pretty important for building software.

Like any other social activity or grouping, that can work well, or it can be toxic, but the need for those social skills as a software engineer isn't inherently evil. Likewise, the fact that people with "better" social skills often "do better" isn't necessarily wrong either because those skills are incredibly important for any cooperative endeavour, and particularly for leadership.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#123

Post by bartread »

aroundtown wrote: post #77
granzymes wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The second thing that frustrates me is the sheer number of people that I have interacted with that have pulled the ladder up behind them once they make it out. Could you expand on that?

Certainly, what I mean here is people that have been helped out to get where they are, then not pay it forward or in fact go out of their way to not help out their peers. I've seen this happen many times. Not just to friends, but co-workers and people that I have met along the way. In one case I had a friend who was hired by a former classmate to a local firm. After a year there they started hiring more programmers c…

> This friend refused to interview people who had graduated from our department or pass along resumes. Instead they started hiring other people from non-engineering departments that they thought they could train to program. This guy is now a C-level and still refuses to hire people that graduated from our department.

I'm not doubting your story for an instant, but this is incredibly strange behaviour and not something I'd consider normal.

Companies I've worked at love hiring referrals because you generally get higher quality and skip all the hassle of dealing with external agencies, dozens or hundreds of applicants, etc. Something like half my team is made up of people I've worked with at other companies in the past - I was overjoyed when they applied for jobs with us - and I still keep a mental rolodex of people I was at university with 20 years ago who I'd be happy to work with.

Cambridge is a bit of an odd place, in that plenty of companies have a bias for Cambridge graduates. That's fine as far as it goes, but I'm generally happy to hear from anyone with a CS background from any university, and am absolutely open to other STEM graduates who demonstrate that they can do the work.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#124

Post by lordnacho »

zamfi wrote: post #120
lordnacho wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Heh, funnily enough you can't prove a principle. But you can find people who support it with reasonable sounding arguments. https://philosophy.stackexchange.com/questions/678/does-a-ne... It boils down to negative claims being quite sweeping, eg "there's no life on other planets" would be on the face of it quite hard to show.

Come on, friend — the very first accepted response there is: > I would say that generally, the burden of proof falls on whomever is making a claim, regardless of the positive or negative nature of that claim. If your intent was to convince me that I’m right, you are doing a wonderful job. :) I might add: your selective quoting of this link also throws some doubt on your claim in another thread that we can solve all o…

There's a lot more to if if you read it. He says the fact that we tend to place the burden on the positive side is because it's essentially impossible to prove the negative, for a lot of cases.

If every claim and it's negative need to be proven, how do you think we proceed? Add in that you can formulate the negative without using standard polarity flippers like "not" and "never". We have to start somewhere, and generally the guy who says "God exists" is the guy who has to make the case. The one who says "There's no god" might need to explain what he means, but he doesn't need to go get a bunch of evidence. I doubt that you disagree with that example.

The question of which is the positive claim arises because it's possible with some fancy footwork to act like you're not saying "God Exists". This is what needed to be picked apart, or not, in the case of the economic argument at the top of the thread.

> I might add: your selective quoting

I didn't quote anything, I referenced the entirety. Part of the point of that is so we avoid picking out a headline and then claim to be finished.

But the fact remains, in school we don't spend much time thinking about all those critical thinking skills. If we at least tried it, kids would be better at it. Much like physical training, it's something that should be brought to our attention in school but needs to be maintained.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#125

Post by alistairSH »

the_only_law wrote: post #116
bradlys wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even $45k sounds ridiculously low if you have a few years of experience. Is there any reason you haven't tried getting a remote job? I can't imagine anywhere even offering less than $60k for someone with a few years and is remote (and is US based).

I made less than that starting in a small city (just under a million in the MSA) in a poor state working for the state government (one of the employers constantly hiring and willing to take a chance on an uneducated kid with a couple of years of freelance experience) and this was after mass applying to positions all over the country. There were a ton of issues on my part and things I still don’t understand and can on…

I make better money now, more than most people my age probably make on average, but probably significantly less than most developers with similar experience

You might be surprised. The salaries reported in this forum are higher than normal, because of the large membership from the west coast/FAANG.

Here in the DC suburbs, I'd expect a non-FAANG developer without a TS/poly to earn $100k-$150k (straight out of college, more like $85k-$100k). Add a TS/poly, working in a SCIF for a 3-letter agency or military, add $20k-$50k to the ends of that range. Yes, many earn more, either working for a FAANG in the area, or in niche areas, or in some sort of management/ownership/partnership arrangement (BAH consultants, etc).

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#126

Post by bradlys »

aroundtown wrote: post #118
the_only_law wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made less than that starting in a small city (just under a million in the MSA) in a poor state working for the state government (one of the employers constantly hiring and willing to take a chance on an uneducated kid with a couple of years of freelance experience) and this was after mass applying to positions all over the country. There were a ton of issues on my part and things I still don’t understand and can on…

Your story sounds a lot like mine. I'd say unless you have really experienced it first hand, or know someone who has, it is hard explaining to others how having a short stent of misfortune can really snowball and keep you down. As much as we hear the great fortune of those that get lucky at the right time, we never hear about those that miss out at the wrong time.

I spent the first two years of my post college time deeply unemployed and then severely underpaid for a few months. I get it. I had to interview with about 80 companies and do over 15 half-day or full-day onsites to get an okay job. Even that job was terrible in its own ways and I left only a year or so later.

So, I get it. I just don’t get the part where it seems like you’ve given up.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#127

Post by i_haz_rabies »

chrk33 wrote: post #102
i_haz_rabies wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I did a 9 week bootcamp and I've been a productive developer for 5 years now (I was an unproductive developer for the first year). I was incredibly lucky to find a company willing to take a chance on me, because I was completely useless at first. This is not an advisable strategy for changing careers, especially for someone with dependents.

That is the kind of outcome I would expect from a bootcamp like that: it gives the impression whether the person has the interest and the aptitude for software engineering and then a long way to get good at it. The article does not get into details about the course which is mentioned and I do not want to make presumptions but if they advertise their course as an entry ticket into the IT job market - especially in the…

I agree. Most of my cohort dropped out in the first week and only one or two of my classmates, out of the original 30, actually ended up with tech jobs.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#128

Post by 908B64B197 »

smnrchrds wrote: post #108
908B64B197 wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3 things: MBAs, Finance and Consulting. Engineering filters heavily for analytical skills and is math heavy.

All of those are among the professions which require a degree. The 1/3 who end up in professions that does not require any degree are not those who have gone into management or finance.

Ahh I didn't realize.

I assumed it was professions that have a licensing requirement where you must have a specific degree (like having an MD to practice medicine) vs some areas of finances where you don't need a particular diploma to pass the required SEC exams or certifications.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#129

Post by selestify »

hi41 wrote: post #73
selestify wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That sounds like suboptimal interviewing on their part. So long as you understand programming fundamentals, you should have no trouble looking up documentation on the fly while on the job, as opposed to memorizing everything before the interview. It might take you a little bit to get ramped up and productive, but that’s normal. I have only been asked once to answer specifics about the idiosyncrasies of a particular l…

I attended 3 interviews. In addition to Java, one interviewer asked for solr experience. Another asked for 5+ years of experience on J2ee. Another spoke yo me, took my details and never came back. All 3 interviews ended unsuccessfully.

Sorry to hear that, that’s quite unfortunate.

Re: Why reskilling won’t always guarantee you a new job

#130

Post by smnrchrds »

908B64B197 wrote: post #128
smnrchrds wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All of those are among the professions which require a degree. The 1/3 who end up in professions that does not require any degree are not those who have gone into management or finance.

Ahh I didn't realize. I assumed it was professions that have a licensing requirement where you must have a specific degree (like having an MD to practice medicine) vs some areas of finances where you don't need a particular diploma to pass the required SEC exams or certifications.

I have not read the full methodology. But if I were to make an educated guess, I would say they used NOC (National Occupation Code) for determining what does or does not require a degree. NOC divides all occupations into 4 skill levels, from A (occupations that usually require university education) to D (occupations that usually do not require even a secondary school diploma). Most probably, they used the same framework and tallied the number of people in engineering, other A level occupations, and everyone else. Finance and consulting are definitely A level.

https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/Structure/NocProfile/36841eebd34e457e...

https://noc.esdc.gc.ca/Structure/NocProfile/f9c47da9dd2644f3...

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